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OT: Settling the issues on "Ethio-Sabean" connections, "Habashat", and the related
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Supercar: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Yom: As I said above, I don't know enough about this type of stuff to really discuss it with a level you'll be satisfied with.[/QUOTE]This isn't good enough, in light of your claim about Sabeans not having a "genetic impact" on the locals. [QUOTE]Yom: We talked about proto-Sinaitic, but I don't remember talking about Wadi el-Hol.[/QUOTE]Where did you suppose the "proto-Sinaitic" alphabets were found, that I posted, concerning the most recent find in Upper Egypt? [QUOTE]Yom: Even if we did, though, mentioning something already discussed doesn't mean that it's a red herring because it's still a script developed in Southern Egypt that could have been tramistted southwards. Either way, discussing whether or not it's a red herring isn't going to get us anywhere.[/QUOTE]It was a red-herring when you brought it up, after I had told you that your claim of "direct" link, as per my understanding then of your claim, of those alphabets to early Ethiopic/Sabean script. I 'remain' in agreement, about its irrelevancy, unless you can indicate how so. [QUOTE]Yom: I don't make the claim that they can. I do think that they can be connected through one or two southern intermediaries which have not yet been found. Given the lack of evidence, however, we don't know their origin (aside from coming from Proto-Sinaitic).[/QUOTE]Well, apparently they are ultimately connected, since it is from an off-shoot of "proto-Sinaitic" [which referred to as "proto-Canaanite" in the Levant], that the south Semitic script diverged. [QUOTE]Yom: I'm not basing this on evidence of a common ancestor found but rather on ancient Ge'ez (I presume alphabet) graffiti that has been found. See below by Xross breed.[/QUOTE]Have already seen it, and responded according. What you are referring to as "Ge'ez" graffiti, is what S. Munro-Hay pointed out as: [i]An inscription from Abba Pantelewon near Aksum, written in the [b]Epigraphic South Arabian script[/b] and [b]mentioning the kingdom of D`MT[/b]; it is dedicated to the [b]deity Dhat-Ba`adan.[/b] It has been photographed upside down Photo BIEA.[/i] - S. Munro-Hay [QUOTE]Yom: No, I'm suggesting it developed through a South Semitic intermediary, or perhaps that and then ESA.[/QUOTE]Then why talk of the "proto-Sinaitic" characters found in upper Egypt, suggesting a common origin but independent development for Ethiopic and Sabean script, without pointing the intermediary scripts in the said ancient complexes. [QUOTE]Yom: What is your basis for saying there's no script dated to 8th c. B.C. in Ethiopia if Minaean is attested to 8th c. BC?[/QUOTE]Lack of evidence. [QUOTE]Yom: All modern publications regarding the time that D`mt existed are clear on this point: 8th-7th c. BC. Here is the first sentence on the entry in [i]Encyclopaedia Aethiopica[/i] by Alexander Sima: D`mt (Da`əmat or Da`amat, vocalization unknown) is mentioned ten times in six Sabaic [refferring to the script] pre-Aksumite royal inscriptions, [b]to be dated approximately to the 8th-7th cent. B.C.[/b][/QUOTE]Apparently not all; just as an example: [i]The monuments are dated from the [b]5th century BC[/b] by study of the letter-forms used on them (palaeography), and seem to appear in Ethiopia at about the same time as they do in South Arabia (nb. the reservations about the dating expressed by Fattovich 1989). [/i] - Munro Hay ...and I can just as easily quote a number of "encyclopedic" sources, that'll attribute the earliest "inscriptions', NOT the polity "D'MT", found in the said pre-Aksumite complex date back to about 5th-6th century B.C. So, the question remains, from what archeological source, are you assessing the timeframe for "D'MT"? [QUOTE]Yom: Sorry. I didn't see that "browsing" was linked. Looking through it, it doesn't address South Arabian chronology, though.[/QUOTE]Why should I address this, when I posted a link, pertaining to your question of where I heard the notion of Minean script dating to about 8th century B.C. What has that claim to do with "South Arabian Chronology"? [QUOTE]Yom: I'm not saying that Ge'ez didn't derive from Sabaean.[/QUOTE]Then, why do you keep trying to make excuses that it could have developed independently from some "south Semitic script"? Case in point...unless I am reading wrong, what you are terming ESA [spell the word in full, for my understanding]: [QUOTE]Yom: As I said earlier, it [i]probably[/i] did derive from a type of ESA (the only way it wouldn't have is if they shared a common ancestor but for some reason Sabaean was used instead of Ge'ez or if Ge'ez previously had interdental consonants that were later lost, which probably didn't happen).[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Yom: What Daniels is saying, however, is that Ge'ez never had these interdentals. If you define Ge'ez specifically as the Ethiopian language spoken prior to 1000 AD and without interdentals, then that's a fact, but you have to consider that in the early D`mt inscriptions, interdentals are used consistently. Later inscriptions, however, do not correctly distinguish between sounds...[/QUOTE]The point that Daniels is trying to make, is that Ethiopic script was influenced, if not derived, from Sabean. Do you agree with this or not? Period. [QUOTE]Yom: Yes, that some inscriptions are in Sabaean language. What you said was this: "The [i]type[/i] of writing used, as I have demonstrated via Munro-Hay's notes and Mr. Daniels comments, is likened to the Sabean script, and hence the usage of the term "pure" [i]Sabean[/i]. (emphasis yours) He's above speaking about the language. The script is a type of ESA.[/QUOTE]Again, I am not entirely sure what you mean by the abbreviation "ESA", but yes, Munro-Hay was referring to two languages, one in "pure" Sabean, and another, in some nameless, presumably local Ethiopian language. What I was trying to get you to see, although futilely, is that the term "pure" implicates the script [the medium of the inscriptions]; meaning two languages have been discerned, but both appear to have been written in [i]Sabean[/i] alphabets/scripts. [QUOTE]Yom: You've been stressing Sabaean influences, so that wasn't apparent. No need to discuss this issue any further, then.[/QUOTE]Like I said, you were not paying attention, and chose to hear, only what you wanted to hear, which is why we are even having this discussion. And yes, in order for you to take home what is being said, I have to refer to "Sabean influences", which is what you've been basically trying to deny. [QUOTE]Yom: No one said the inscriptions are unfounded. I said that the idea of colonists and colonised is unfounded.[/QUOTE]How so? My stance remains that, the idea of Sabean colonialists has neither been proven nor disproven. Ps: [i]It appears that there were undoubtedly some South Arabian immigrants in Ethiopia in the mid-first millenium BC, but there is (unless the interpretation of Michels is accepted) [b]no sure indication that they were politically dominant.[/b] The sites chosen by them may be related to their relative ease of access to the Red Sea coast. Arthur Irvine (1977) and others have regarded [b]sympathetically [/b]the [b]suggestion that the inscriptions which testify to Sabaean presence in Ethiopia may have been set up by colonists[/b] around the time of the Sabaean ruler Karibil Watar in the late fourth century BC; but the dating is very uncertain, as noted above. [b]They may have been military or trading colonists, living in some sort of **symbiosis** with the local Ethiopian population, perhaps under a species of treaty-status.[/b][/i] - S. Munro-Hay From what I gather from the above, you have to be specific when you use the term "colonialists", because it would appear, it is not ruled out [above] that these potential "colonialists" could have been "traders" or "military" personnel [perhaps with their families] stationed there for some mutual benefit with the locals, with perhaps the ruling elites being of local background. Again, highly speculative, in any case. [QUOTE]Yom: The above doesn't specifically mention proto-Ge'ez, but other authors identify it as an early form of Ge'ez. See again [URL=http://www.addistribune.com/Archives/2003/01/17-01-03/Let.htm]here[/URL], by Richard Pankhrust: " It revealed the existence in Ethiopia of Ge‘ez graffiti, and other inscriptions, which were quite as old as the South Arabian inscriptions in Ethiopia."[/QUOTE]See again, [i]my[/i] post on what was mentioned in the said inscriptions and how, as per Munro-Hay's notes, the so-called graffiti were referenced. [QUOTE]Yom: As I told you, the Tihama cultural complex was [i]African[/i] in origin, not South Arabian. Either way, the existence of the cultural complex [i]has nothing to do with the existence of Sabaeans in Ethiopia[/i]. I was merely pointing out that shared cultural affinities need not be due simply to Sabaean presence in Ethiopia.[/QUOTE]Well, for the second time, my question was based on your claim: [i]Explain to me exactly how a cultural complex [b]originating from Ethiopia[/b] **extant** on [b]both sides of the Red Sea[/b] is evidence of a Sabaean presence in Ethiopia.[/i] Tell its bad writing on your part, or is the above suggesting an Ethiopian origin for the Sabean complex? [QUOTE]Yom: Which South Arabian complex? I'm suggesting that the Tihama cultural complex has Ethiopian origins.[/QUOTE]See post immediately above. [QUOTE]Yom: The Munro-Hay citations in fact form part of the [i]basis[/i] for my argument. That "actual Sabaean presence is assumed at Matara, Yeha and Hawelti-Melazo" (but so far nowhere else), and that "these `inscriptional' Sabaeans did not remain more than a century or so — or perhaps even only a few decades — as a separate and identifiable people" (Munro-Hay).[/QUOTE]Okay. I in fact posted this, and...? [QUOTE]Yom: See above wrt Pankhurst. [/QUOTE]See my response to that post. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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