posted
We've had several old threads on this topic, so this thread is sure to produce much redundancy.
* Judged by his iconography he was dark skinned, and from what is known of his family history he was African - Kemetic, though it is possible - if not proven - that he had some Asiatic - semitic ancestry.
** African scholar Diop wanted to perform a melanin dosage test on Ramses II, the only direct method to assess his skin color, but was not allowed to.
*** Some people have tried to say that Ramses was white based on his hair and his nose, but Ramses died as and old man [70-90 something years old], and his remaining hair has been subject to both X-ray and chemical processing. His nose was apparently broken post mortem and reset. And even if his nose was not broken and hair were not faded with age and chemicals - it would not tell us much of anything about his skin color.
adrianne Member # 10761
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hi mike and rasol.
i kind of agree with this statement:
* Judged by his iconography he was dark skinned, and from what is known of his family history he was African - Kemetic, though it is possible - if not proven - that he had some Asiatic - semitic ancestry.
i live in a inner city area here in bristol which is in england and through the years ive seen some people who are mixed race who look uncannly like some of the busts of ramesses 2 ive seen.
King_Scorpion Member # 4818
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It depends on who you ask. The 18th Dynasty was definitly more "black" than the 19th Dynasty (Ramses's Dynasty). Melanin tests have been somewhat banned in Egypt. Anything that validates a predominately African population is shunned and ruled "inconclusive."
posted
*sigh* Rasol is right. We have gone over this issue so many times recently, it is beggining to give me a headache.
To add to Rasol's info, here are Egyptian depictions of Ramessu II:
Wally Member # 2936
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quote: Topic: was Ramses II black?
...
Is the Pope catholic?
kembu Member # 5212
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quote:Originally posted by adrianne: hi mike and rasol.
i kind of agree with this statement:
* Judged by his iconography he was dark skinned, and from what is known of his family history he was African - Kemetic, though it is possible - if not proven - that he had some Asiatic - semitic ancestry.
i live in a inner city area here in bristol which is in england and through the years ive seen some people who are mixed race who look uncannly like some of the busts of ramesses 2 ive seen.
I am just puzzled about why the mummy and the statues look so different. Did they misidentify the mummy or the statues? The statues look African while the mummy looks somewhat semitic.
rasol Member # 4592
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quote:Originally posted by kembu:
quote:Originally posted by adrianne: hi mike and rasol.
i kind of agree with this statement:
* Judged by his iconography he was dark skinned, and from what is known of his family history he was African - Kemetic, though it is possible - if not proven - that he had some Asiatic - semitic ancestry.
i live in a inner city area here in bristol which is in england and through the years ive seen some people who are mixed race who look uncannly like some of the busts of ramesses 2 ive seen.
I am just puzzled about why the mummy and the statues look so different. Did they misidentify the mummy or the statues? The statues look African while the mummy looks somewhat semitic.
You referring to his 'hooked nose'?
Peppercorns were placed in his broken nose to restore its shape and his sense of smell in the after life. His nose may have been broken during the mummification process when his brain was removed through his nose.
posted
On the same note, other sites say this about his nose:
quote: Many of the mummies which have been examined show damage to the skull in the region of the nose proving that this was the method used. The mummy of Rameses II had peppercorns inserted into the nasal cavity in an attempt to retain his distinctive hooked nose.
Nonetheless, his nose was stuffed with peppercorns, unlike OTHER mummies (like Tut) and thereby EXAGGERATING it somewhat. Xray scans SHOULD be able to confirm that it was broken.
Also, note that Ramesses was NOT buried at Abu Simbel. He was first buried in the valley of the Kings in tomb KV7. This tomb is at the entrance to the valley and much lower than the other tombs. It has been largely destroyed due to flooding. Because of historical events like this and other factors, we have very few painted reliefs left to us of Ramesses II. We have plenty of statues, including the largest in Egypt, but few painted ones. So people tend to focus on the mummy, but often resort to over emphasizing and possibly distorting the TINIEST facts as somehow PROOF of something. The nose of the mummy and so-called red hair are TWO examples of flimsy facts being paraded as PROOF of some sort. You have to look at ALL the evidence, not just SELECTED facts that may or may not be 100% accurate, when trying to figure out such things.
But all the comments about distortion aside, I still respect the efforts being made to conserve and restore the monuments in Egypt. The two tombs Kv5 (sons of Ramesses II) and Kv7(Ramesses II) are the biggest ever found in Egypt AND the most damaged. Kent Weeks and the crew at www.thebanmappingproject.com are currently excavating those sites, which is a monumental undertaking. Without that we wouldn't have this: http://www.thebanmappingproject.com/images/large/19567.jpg
mike rozier Member # 10852
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I heard John Romer say that anceint egypt did'nt have all the hang-ups with race, like we have today in the world...
is that true?
part of me wants to beleive that, but then another part reconises the world was all about tribes back then..and I would think a tribe would revolve around race..
:/
alTakruri Member # 10195
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When did African and Semitic become mutually exclusive and how can anyone define looking either way?
Does a person look African like coastal Imazighen or does a person look Semitic like the Amhara?
Preconditioned myths and sterotypes about physical archetypes.
quote:Originally posted by kembu: The statues look African while the mummy looks somewhat semitic.
alTakruri Member # 10195
posted
The reason mummies have nose damage is because the mummification process required that the brain be "liquified" and thereafter removed via the nose.
[will try to find a pic of mortuary technicians doing it and put it here]
Pax Dahomensis Member # 9851
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I have it that the third pic posted by Djehuti is of Tuthmose IV, not Ramose II.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^^Woops, you're right!
Wally Member # 2936
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The reason mummies have nose damage is because the mummification process required that the brain be "liquified" and thereafter removed via the nose.
[will try to find a pic of mortuary technicians doing it and put it here]
Well, actually, it is more simple than that. The tight wrappings around the mummified body, especially the face, caused these physical distortions. This, one can easily self demonstrate by simply wrapping an elastic bandage around ones own nose and see how this distorts the nose. Simple...
Doug M Member # 7650
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Even if not the wrapping itself, but the actual process of embalming, etc could have done it. Is there a DEFINITIVE statement about his nose being broken? There must be an xray somewhere showing whether it is broken or that is its natural shape.
Wally Member # 2936
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...the nose of Tutankhamen, for example, shows the same type of physical distortion - caused by the wrappings - as that of Rameses II...
quote:Originally posted by Wally: ...the nose of Tutankhamen, for example, shows the same type of physical distortion - caused by the wrappings - as that of Rameses II...
Correct, this is what x-ray imaging of Rameses' skull actually show; pay attention to what it doesn't show:
alTakruri Member # 10195
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bump up
KemsonReloaded Member # 14127
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quote:Originally posted by kembu: I am just puzzled about why the mummy and the statues look so different. Did they misidentify the mummy or the statues? The statues look African while the mummy looks somewhat semitic.
kembu, it's called "manipulation" or "political manipulation". Other fun words used to describe the process behind such confusions include, but not limited to: fabrication, forgery, plagiarism, racism, bigotry, sham, phony, imitation, fake, counterfeit, and my own uniquely coined term, packing a major B-S'ing wallop.
Ancient Kemetians were completely Black Africans and European specialists know this. Often, bass relief artworks found on the walls of Ancient Kemet are meant the generalize visual events and situations, not aimed at representing people and other figures in their exact visual states. On the other hand, statues are, except for abstract artistic ones, are meant the reproduce the exact physical features of subjects, therefore, wall art and statues normally project the same subjects differently. This is the kind of natural and convenient situation many specialists have knowingly decided to use as bases for introducing weak logics forcing them to run away from all the evidences of true Black African or Negro origin of Ancient Kemetians. Many people have gone even lower in their logic by attempting to divide the many shades of the Negro color and features such as Black, Brown, Reddish-Brown, dark or light brown, long hair/short hair/thick nose/think nose, into races instead of attributing such diversity to the high variation of the Negroid gene. They will even try to make some Black Africans like the Puel, Sudanese, Ethiopian and others less Black African than others. It is a game of creating and selling perceptions of realities and understanding this makes it easier for Black people to correct any wrong done on them effectively.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ There is nothing fake or plaigaristic about it. The mummy of Ramses II is real enough. Whether it is "Semitic" looking is again with regards to highly subjective opinion. As Rasol and others have said countless times there are plenty of black Africans with the same features as the mummy or rather would like like that mummy if they were mummified themselves.
posted ![[Embarrassed]](redface.gif)
Rasol is right. We have gone over this issue so many times recently, it is beggining to give me a headache.
