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Northern Arab Sudanese look like the average Black African
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chimu: [qb] The markers still show back migration into Africa And it is not modern but dates back to the Holocene[/qb] [QUOTE]"Several mtDNA haplogroups—such as (preHV)1, U6, and some subbranches of L3 that Ethiopians share with North African populations—display coalescent times in the early Holocene (table 3) a similar period to that estimated for North and East African Y chromosomes in haplogroup E3b1-M78, which is abundant and may have originated in Ethiopia (Cruciani et al. 2004; Luis et al. 2004). It is interesting that, like E3b1-M78, these mtDNA haplogroups are infrequent or absent in our Yemeni sample (table 1). Note that the identified time window is close to the proposed division of the Semitic and Cushitic branches of Afro-Asiatic languages (Militarev 2003) and corresponds broadly to the beginning of deep environmental changes in the deserts of the Sahara and the Arabian Peninsula, when those regions recovered from their widest span and most extreme aridity during the Last Glacial Maximum period. [b]On the other hand, similar to mtDNA haplogroup (preHV)1, Y-chromosomal haplogroup J1-M267 can be identified as the sole branch that is highly abundant in the Near and Middle East and in northeastern and East Africa (Underhill et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2002, 2004; Luis et al. 2004). Higher STR diversity of this Y-chromosomal clade among Europeans and Ethiopians, as compared with populations from northeastern Africa and the Middle East, suggests that it may have reached Ethiopia (and Europe) early in the Holocene, whereas its frequent spread in North Africa and the Middle East may have been driven by the expansion of Arabs since the 7th century (Semino et al. 2004).[/b][/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Well, conserning the M267 lineages, it's awfully important to keep things in perspective: [QUOTE][i]J-M267 was spread by two temporally distinct migratory episodes, the most recent one probably associated with the diffusion of Arab people[/i][/QUOTE]Let's take a look at Hg J in general, and then J-M267: [IMG]http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1181965&blobname=AJHGv74p1023fg2.jpg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/picrender.fcgi?artid=1181965&blobname=AJHGv74p1023fg2.jpg]Same image.[/URL] If the image isn't showing, [URL=http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=1181965&rendertype=figure&id=FG2]click this link[/URL]. [QUOTE][i]J-M267 is notable, since this haplogroup shows its highest frequencies in the Middle East, North Africa, and Ethiopia (fig. 2B) and its lowest in Europe, having been observed only in the Mediterranean area.[/i][/QUOTE] [QUOTE][i][b]The lower internal variance of J-M267 in theMiddle East and North Africa, relative to Europe and Ethiopia, is suggestive of two different migrations.[/b] In the absence of additional binary polymorphisms allowing further informative subdivision of J-M267, the YCAII microsatellite system provides important insights. The [b]majority of J-M267 Y chromosomes harbor the single-banded motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the Middle East (>70%) and in North Africa (>90%), whereas this association is much less frequent in Ethiopia and only sporadically found in southern Europe[/b]. Considering the distribution of this YCAII single- banded pattern—which, besides the usual stepwise mutational mechanism, could be due to a stable mutational event (one locus deletion or a single-nucleotide mutation in the primer sequence)—we suggest that the motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 potentially characterizes a monophyletic clade of J-M267. A comparable situation is observed within Hg I-M170, in which the single-banded haplotype YCAIIa21-YCAIIb21 parallels a biallelic marker (O.S., unpublished data). [b]According to this interpretation, the first migration, probably in Neolithic times, brought J-M267 to Ethiopia and Europe, whereas a second, more-recent migration diffused the clade harboring the microsatellite motif YCAIIa22-YCAIIb22 in the southern part of theMiddle East and in North Africa.[/b][/i][/QUOTE]Courtesy [URL=http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/AJHG_2004_v74_p1023-1034.pdf]Semino et al 2004.[/URL] [QUOTE][i]Distinct histories of J-M267* lineages are suggested: [b]an expansion from the Middle East toward East Africa and Europe[/b] and a more-recent diffusion (marked by the YCAIIa-22/ YCAIIb-22 motif) of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa.[/i][/QUOTE]I would like to know what qualifies the term "The Middle East" to be used [b]in the bolded[/b] of the abov piece (an ever growing shrinking term that sometimes encompasses Egypt, Sudan, all of North Africa, South Western Asia, and sometimes a big chunk of the Indian sub-continent) -> what exactly the "Middle East" means. I would like for the bolded to be more specific. Even so, in North Africa this is deemed to be the result of more recent diffusion [i]"of Arab people from the southern part of the Middle East toward North Africa"[/i] and so I don't see how it would be a relevant rebuttal to what I posted earlier. Of course, as a member that went by the alias al Takruri put it, there were no invisible bug-zappers set to non-African fatality at the borders of Kemet, and Kemet had much to offer, and so there was probable immigration. However, what I posted was primarily in response to the intense racialized attitude toward Kemet while not doing the same for civilizations out side of it. With the Holocene African outmigration into the Levant, and African lineages all the way to Greece, perhaps we should talk about their ethnicities as being "admixed" too. Everyone's "mixed", we all come from common ancestors. Persia is South Asian, Greece was European, and Kemet African. And before anyone talks about contributions: don't forget Europe and the "Mid-East" civilizations have Kemetian contributions of there own. ;) Not that what I've posted has been refuted -> it includes some of the most up-to-date material in comparison to what you've posted. However it seems that many take my material and go off on "there MUST have been SOME non-blacks there" modern political oriented tirades as if my material is posted with anti-non African intentions. The only sentiment behind what I post is perhaps the idea that Ancient Egypt/ Kem.t should be given the same respect approach that other ancient cultures are given no matter how much it offends self-proclaimed "whites" and "non-Africans" and that double-standards should be eliminated. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Chimu: [qb] Hmmmmm... No common ancestors in East Africans and the Near East? No admixture?[/qb][/QUOTE]What I [i]quoted[/i] was this: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Alive-(What Box): [b][i]suggesting a lack of common ancestors over a long time.[/i][/b][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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