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I don't know if there's a post about this but what is this the general consensus of the origins of the copts? Are they closely related to the Ancient Egyptains?
Jo Nongowa Member # 14918
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No. They are not.
Evergreen Member # 12192
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quote:Originally posted by waypey: I don't know if there's a post about this but what is this the general consensus of the origins of the copts? Are they closely related to the Ancient Egyptains?
Evergreen Posts:
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese
Hassan et al.
2008
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology".
Jo Nongowa Member # 14918
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The so called Copts are Asiatics from the Levant. The so called Ancient Egyptians were African.
ausar Member # 1797
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While many of the modern Copts donot phenotypically represent the ancient Egyptians, its rather unfair to claim all are desendants of invaders from the Levant. Many are probably Levantine and southern European immigrants but many are also desendants of the ancient Egyptians.
The phenotype of the modern Copts varies as much as the Muslims in Egypt. Both groups,particularly the rural populations, represent a phenotype closer to the ancient Egyptians.
People have a unclear representatin of what Copts look like because they mainly see the lightest skinned ones in America. Rarely does one see the darker Copts that live in extreme southern Egypt. Many of the more affluent Coptic families have mixed with Greeks,Armenians and Lebanese[Maronites] which is why many are lighter. This has been historically going on since the Islamic era in Egypt's past[see a book entitled The Fatimid Armenians Cultural and Political Interaction in the Near East Seta B. Dadoyan and also any Otto Meinardus publication detailing Copts and foreigners intermingling in monestaries]
Jo Nongowa Member # 14918
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Ausar:
The current inhabitants of the land Of Khem have a contempt and hatred for all things African and yet would claim the heritage of ancient Khem that ended with the 26th Dynasty.
Quite strange. Don't you think?
Sundjata Member # 13096
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^^Ausar is correct..
quote:Originally posted by Evergreen:
quote:Originally posted by waypey: I don't know if there's a post about this but what is this the general consensus of the origins of the copts? Are they closely related to the Ancient Egyptains?
Evergreen Posts:
Y-Chromosome Variation Among Sudanese
Hassan et al.
2008
"The Copt samples displayed a most interesting Y-profile, enough (as much as that of Gaalien in Sudan) to suggest that they represent a living record of the peopling of Egypt. The significant frequency of B-M60 in this group might be a relic of a history of colonization of southern Egypt probably by Nilotics in the early state formation, something that conforms both to recorded history and to Egyptian mythology".
Hmm, very interesting citation Evergreen. You always get your hands on some very useful information. I'm assuming that the Copts sampled were from Upper Egypt [?]....
quote:Originally posted by Jo Nongowa: Ausar:
The current inhabitants of the land Of Khem have a contempt and hatred for all things African and yet would claim the heritage of ancient Khem that ended with the 26th Dynasty.
Quite strange. Don't you think?
Ausar is an Egyptian.. His judgment I'd say is sound on the issue and he himself recognizes obviously the indigenous African nature of the Egyptians so surely all of them don't feel that way..
Btw, welcome back Ausar, hope you decide to stick around more often, though I don't blame you if you don't.........
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^^ Yes. Sounds like the Anglo_Dutch in southern Africa who term themselves African when expedient but refer to the indigenees and owners of the land as black Africans.
ausar Member # 1797
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quote:Ausar:
The current inhabitants of the land Of Khem have a contempt and hatred for all things African and yet would claim the heritage of ancient Khem that ended with the 26th Dynasty.
Quite strange. Don't you think?
This is a very broad generalization. Modern egyptians have varying views on ancient Egypt and of modern Africa. Many have developed a colonial attitude toward much of Africa and its people.
Even if such views are taken into account you cannot divorce the rural modern Egyptians from their heritage. Documentation has shown that many pratice ancestrial traditons that most likely go back to the ancient Egyptians.
I am a modern Egyptian that does support the African origin of the ancient Egyptians. You will find that even fervent pan-Arabists like Nasser knew and supported Pan-Africanism. I personally donot support Pan-Africanism but I am not against the notion.
Your acessment that ancient Egypt ended with the 26th dyansty is wrong. Despite the foreign rulership, the culture of ancient Kmt flourished and still remains in little pockets throughout modern day rural Egypt[ see Alan K Bowman's Egypt After the Pharoahs,Religion in Roman Egypt: Assimilation and Resistance David Frankfurter]
For a background in pharoanic influences in modern Egypt amongst the fellahin and baladi[rural Egyptian migrants to Cairo and Alexandria]
see the following publications:
Baladi Women of Cairo Evenlyn A Early
Manner and Customs of the modern Egyptians by Edward Lane
The Egyptian Peasant: Henry Habib Ayrout
You are entitled to your opinion but I suggest you study modern about the era after the 26th dyansty before making such presumptions.
Alive-(What Box) Member # 10819
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That's a really nice citation EverG.
Jo -> you made a generalization, as I know that ausar here isn't the only Egyptian who doesn't have 'contempt and hatred for all things African'.
quote:Jo Nongowa: The current inhabitants of the land Of Khem have a contempt and hatred for all things African ... Quite strange. Don't you think?
I think it's better stated this way:
quote:Originally posted by Sundiata:
The Islamic invasions can't be overstated either. Such is ultimately responsible for the most enduring language shift, religious affiliation/shift, and cultural shift. It goes without saying that it was the source of a significant demographic shift as well. Egypt has been through a lot.
ausar Member # 1797
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quote:Hmm, very interesting citation Evergreen. You always get your hands on some very useful information. I'm assuming that the Copts sampled were from Upper Egypt [?]...
Most likely the Copts sampled are from Middle and Upper Egypt. Historically there was an exodus from Middle and Upper Egyptian villages into the Sudan. I wouldn't be suprised if many of the rural or baladi Copts living within Egypt show the same samplings. The line has been blurred though because mixing between all Copts has occured.
ausar Member # 1797
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quote:The Islamic invasions can't be overstated either. Such is ultimately responsible for the most enduring language shift, religious affiliation/shift, and cultural shift. It goes without saying that it was the source of a significant demographic shift as well. Egypt has been through a lot
I don't necessarily agree with the assertion that the Islamic era in Egypt brought a great demographic shift. If any demographic shift occured it was mostly confinded to the major urban areas but not as reflective in the rural centers. Of course the rural centers saw some demographic shift but it was not very pronouced except in some areas in Middle Egypt.
The Egyptian population was already mixed going as far back to the Late era in the pharoanic era. The population become much more as time progressed and more foreigners came into Egypt. One of the common fallacy I see is people discount the natural migrations that occured without invasion. Meaning many migrations occured from the Late era to the Roman era. [Please check the following publication for evidence Egypt after the Pharoahs by Alan K Bowman]
Anyway, I suggest more people study the eras after the pharoanic era into the Islamic era and beyond. This happens to be one of the historical eras of ancient Egypt where we have the most evidence.
Sundjata Member # 13096
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quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:The Islamic invasions can't be overstated either. Such is ultimately responsible for the most enduring language shift, religious affiliation/shift, and cultural shift. It goes without saying that it was the source of a significant demographic shift as well. Egypt has been through a lot
I don't necessarily agree with the assertion that the Islamic era in Egypt brought a great demographic shift. If any demographic shift occured it was mostly confinded to the major urban areas but not as reflective in nthe rural centers. Of course the rural centers saw some demographic shift but it was not very pronouced except in some areas in Middle Egypt.
The Egyptian population was already mixed going as far back to the Late era in the pharoanic era. The population become much more as time progressed and more foreigners came into Egypt. One of the common fallacy I see is people discount the natural migrations that occured without invasion. Meaning many migrations occured from the Late era to the Roman era. [Please check the following publication for evidence Egypt after the Pharoahs by Alan K Bowman]
Anyway, I suggest more people study the eras after the pharoanic era into the Islamic era and beyond. This happens to be one of the historical eras of ancient Egypt where we have the most evidence.
I most certainly agree with you Ausar.. Preceding that quote of mine by Alive, I'd emphasized the demographic effects associated with migrants stretching back as early as the Hyksos incursions. Alive (What-Box) quoted me out of context [from another thread] and I request in the future that he not do that since it doesn't effectively summarize my position. Hence, my stated view [via Keita's interpretations] that there was a relatively "significant" demographic "shift" as a consequence of the Arab/Islamic invasion but not necessarily the most enduring.
"it can be stated that the presence of haplotypes VII and VIII, characteristic of the Near East, are probably primarily associated with movements during the Islamic era, although it would be surprising if there were no contribution in the mid-Holocene with the introduction of wheat and barley" - http://wysinger.homestead.com/African_Archaeological_Revie__June_2005_.pdf
I also don't doubt at all, given the isolation of Egypt's rural communities, that they [rural Egyptians and Fellahin] were less affected.
Jari-Ankhamun Member # 14451
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quote:Originally posted by ausar:
quote:The Islamic invasions can't be overstated either. Such is ultimately responsible for the most enduring language shift, religious affiliation/shift, and cultural shift. It goes without saying that it was the source of a significant demographic shift as well. Egypt has been through a lot
I don't necessarily agree with the assertion that the Islamic era in Egypt brought a great demographic shift. If any demographic shift occured it was mostly confinded to the major urban areas but not as reflective in the rural centers. Of course the rural centers saw some demographic shift but it was not very pronouced except in some areas in Middle Egypt.
The Egyptian population was already mixed going as far back to the Late era in the pharoanic era. The population become much more as time progressed and more foreigners came into Egypt. One of the common fallacy I see is people discount the natural migrations that occured without invasion. Meaning many migrations occured from the Late era to the Roman era. [Please check the following publication for evidence Egypt after the Pharoahs by Alan K Bowman]
Anyway, I suggest more people study the eras after the pharoanic era into the Islamic era and beyond. This happens to be one of the historical eras of ancient Egypt where we have the most evidence.
I agree, What most people fail to realise is that Kmt became "Mixed" almost from the Begining..As Egypt Flourished More Immigrants settled in its towns and adopted the Egyptian Traditions and customs...
However it is very telling that the Uniters and founders of the Old and New and Middle Kingdoms were of Upper Egyptian origin....I even read somewhere that the Lower Eyptians duding the Hyksos occupation actually ENJOYED the Hyskos....
Anyway, I have a question...You said you support an African origin of Egypt..? Do you think your ancestors were a mix of varius tribes...or were Just "Egyptian"..? Just wondering...I just found out Nassar was a Pan Africanist...COOL!
Also If you can I have been trying to see if the Kushites had Doctors and Science..ect Like Egyptians during Pharonic Eras...If you have any info please tell..
Thanks..
ausar Member # 1797
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quote:I agree, What most people fail to realise is that Kmt became "Mixed" almost from the Begining..As Egypt Flourished More Immigrants settled in its towns and adopted the Egyptian Traditions and customs...
However it is very telling that the Uniters and founders of the Old and New and Middle Kingdoms were of Upper Egyptian origin....I even read somewhere that the Lower Eyptians duding the Hyksos occupation actually ENJOYED the Hyskos....
Anyway, I have a question...You said you support an African origin of Egypt..? Do you think your ancestors were a mix of varius tribes...or were Just "Egyptian"..? Just wondering...I just found out Nassar was a Pan Africanist...COOL!
I go with the archaeological and skeletal information to pinpoint the exact origins of the ancient Egyptians. From the works of Dr. Shomaraka Keita,Fekri Hassan and Michael Hoffman. From the data it seems the early populations came from the the Upper Nile and from the Sahara. I have not kept up with the new finding so I cannot tell you if much has changed. All is fairly mainstream archaeology and anthropology. Still I do put mainstream academic under scrunity when dealing with ancient Egypt.
The only definite I can tell you is that modern day rural Egyptians have alot of customs and pratices much like so-called inner Africans.
I donot definately know what exact group the ancient Egyptians came from except I know they were from the Sahara and probably the Upper Nile Valley. All archaeological findings seems to point to this origin. From this information we see that the southern neighboors of the ancient Egyptian shared a uniform culture with some slight differences.
Since we have not deciphered Meroitic I cannot tell you how efficent the medical pratices of the ancient Kushites were. Van Sertima's book Blacks in Science cites a study done on Meroitic remains that show the population in Meroitic Nubia weas healthy and also a possibility that anistestic[sic] was used. I don't have any of the source material in my hands. Check out Van Sertima's bibliography.
ausar Member # 1797
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Sunjata, indeed rural Egypt was less effected by the Arabic invasion excluding parts of the Delta and Middle Egypt. Some Arabic tribes did settle around middle Egypt causing a hierarchy of those with ''pure'' Arabic ancestry or partial to be overlords of the fellahin. What is ironic is that some of these tribes might be Hawwara[which is not actually Arabic at all but berbers]. Most of the local goverment representation is pulled from these tribal groupings and very little from the Fellahin.
Anyway I ask that people please study more about Egypt after the Pharoah up to the overthrow of King Farouk. It might seem like a futile exercise but much insight into modern Egypt can be gleaned from it. From questions about the Copts,fellahin and the current attitudes of modern Egyptians.
ausar Member # 1797
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Anybody that wishes to learn more about the Islamic and post-pharoanic era I recommend these titles:
The Cambridge History of Egypt (The Cambridge history of Egypt) (Hardcover) by Carl F. Petry (Editor)
The Mamluks in Egyptian Politics and Society (Cambridge Studies in Islamic Civilization) (Hardcover) by Thomas Philipp (Editor), Ulrich Haarmann (Editor)
The Fatimid Armenians: Cultural and Political Interaction in the Near East (Islamic History and Civilization , No 18) by Seta B. Dadoyan
History of Egypt in the Middle Ages by Stanley Lane-Poole
Cairo: 1001 Years of the City Victorious (Hardcover) by Janet L. Abu-Lughod (Author)
Egypt After the Pharoahs by Alan K Bowman
The Egyptian Peasant by Henery Aryout Habib[sources within this book cite a Arabic traveler from Iraq that described the Upper Egyptians as dark skinned]
Be advised that most of these books are extremely expensive. Unless you have acess to a university library you will need a interlibrary loan from your local library.
I hope this helps everyone interested.
Alive-(What Box) Member # 10819
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^Thanks, missed this:
quote:Originally posted by Jari-Ankhamun: However it is very telling that the Uniters and founders of the Old and New and Middle Kingdoms were of Upper Egyptian origin....I even read somewhere that the Lower Eyptians duding the Hyksos occupation actually ENJOYED the Hyskos....
I doubt it. I mean I would be very surprised.
The freeking Hyksos, what, are you kidding me?
That had to be one of the most, if not the most, brutal conflicts/invasions in Kemet's history.
Was thinking myself though how the people were conquered from the South and how the population were initially much more concentrated in Southern/Upper Egypt
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I request in the future that he not do that since it doesn't effectively summarize my position.
gotcha.
Sundjata Member # 13096
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^It's okay, that was just a bit confusing since I didn't remember writing that and when I tracked it down, it was a bit out of context. Besides, it's old news anyway. No prob.
Alive-(What Box) Member # 10819
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^Cool.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: effectively summarize my position.
By the way nice blog.
Alive-(What Box) Member # 10819
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It's new, too. I bet you've been waiting a white to get that off, lol.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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Ausar is correct. Coptic is merely a branch or denomination of Christianity and one of the oldest at that predating Catholocism. Being a Coptic says little to nothing about looks or ancestry.
*Misho* Member # 12012
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Does anyone know then the actual root for the word "Coptic" ?
????? Member # 12336
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Yes, it means : Egyptian...
ausar Member # 1797
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Most scholarly sources claim the word Copt comes from the Greek mipronuciation of Hi-ku-ptah which was the name of the spirtual center for the deity ptah in Men-nefer[Memephis]. I have heard other claims it came from a place somewhere in Middle Egypt called Geb-ti.
*Misho* Member # 12012
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^^ So according to the 2 posts above the egyptian whether christian or muslim or jew or even athiest suppose to be called Coptic??,,I mean why its common to talk about christian egyptians only as a coptic if its something about the land not about the religion of christianty??
????? Member # 12336
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Yes, as I have been informed, the word Copt stood just from somebody from Egypt, no matter what religion he/she might have had... If you are interested I can ask why only Christian Egyptians are calling themselves Copt now. Maybe my friend also knows, because she is the one who told me. (Its the same as with that train story where villagers shared their food with the stranded passengers. She also told me that. A bit different subjects as where the usual visitors on this board like to talk about, but that's one of the benefits of mixed friendships without marriage-background. )
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ 'Copt' may have originally meant Egyptian in general but it was later applied to the branch of Christianity that began in Egypt and spread to the rest of Africa. Thus along with Egyptian Copts you had Sudanese Copts (which became succeeded by Muslims) and Ethiopian Copts. Today the remaining old Christian Churches in Africa are in Egypt and Ethiopia.
HistoryFacelift Member # 14696
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I thought Copts were decendents of Greek, and that because Greeks are considered Egyptian and not outsiders because they adopt the culture, they then say Copts are closely related to Egyptians.
I have seen very view Copts, if anyone have photos please post.
What language is it that they speak?
Do they think they are white or do they consider themselves seperate from the other Egyptians?
Do Copts recognize the racial variations among their own specific group?
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ Copt comes from the Latin word Coptos which ultimately means 'Egyptian'. It just meant Egyptian in general, but was later narrowed to the early African Christian denomination of not only Egypt, but Sudan and Ethiopia as well. There is no ethnic connotation associated with it other than Egyptian. So Egyptians regardless of actual ethnic origins were called 'Copts' and today that term is reserved only among Christian Egyptians.
Also, Coptic is the name of the surviving descendant of the ancient Egyptian language.
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