Note how the Mayan chief painted himself Black to welcome Ekchuah. Also look at how the leading personage before the Black travler kneels.
Vase from Chama Guatemala
Given the discovery of numerous Olmec artifacts depicting Blacks begs a number of questions: “Were there Black or African people in ancient America? Do the African heads of the Olmec confirm an African presence in Mexico or do they show present-day Mayan people? What is the relation between contemporary Black Costa Chicas (negrocostachicanos) and Blacks depicted in Olmec artifacts? The idea of mestizaje was developed by Jose Vascoucelos. Mr. Vascouselos became Minister of Education in 1921. During his tenure Black heroes of Mexican history were whitened as Vascoucelos pursued a policy of homogenization of Mexicans (Cuevas, 2004). In 1946, Black Mexicans were rediscovered by Aguirre Beltran (1972) when he found the Blacks in Costa Chica. This was a rediscovery because the idea of mestizaje stressed the idea that there were only Mexicans, and not Amerindians, Whites or Blacks. The only problem with this idea was that Black Mexicans became associated with poverty and ignorance. These Blacks also experience much discrimination throughout Mexico, and much hostility in Costa Chica (Vaugh, 2005a, 2005b).
The Negrocostachicanos claim that they have never been slaves and are indigenous to Guererro and Oaxaca on the Pacific coast of Mexico. The 1990 Mexican census recorded 66,000 Negrocostachicanos. These Mexicans live in African style huts and practice rituals which may be of African origin (Vaugh,2005a). Most researchers believe that the Negrocostachicanos are decendants of marrons or runaway slaves (Aguirre Beltran, 1972; Vaugh,2005a). But none of the Blacks of Costa Chica have songs about slavery and its hardships (Baja.com.2005).The Negrocostachicanos say “they are not they insist, the descendants of African slaves. There was never slavery here, even in ancient times” (Baja.com,2005). Bobby Vaugh (2005b) noted that he found “no consciousness of slavery among people in Costa Chica” (p.5). Another researcher, noted that “Housewives in San Jose Estancia Grande and Santiago Tapextla [in Costa Chica] say their ancestors did not come from Africa, that their families have always lived right here” (Baja.com, 2005, p.6). The fact that the Negrocostachicanos claim that they were never slaves has troubled some researchers who believe that the only Blacks in Mexico came to the New World with the Spanish. Although this is the popular view concerning the origin of Blacks in Mexico, this view may be Eurocentric because the archaeological and historical evidence indicate that Blacks were already in Mexico when the Spanish made there way to Mexico.
Leo Wiener in the African Discovery of America (1922), provides a detailed account of the Black gods of Mexico in the third volume in this series of books. Wiener outlined that the Blacks were traveling merchants in Mexico selling cocao, feathers and other products. The major Black gods of the Mexicans was Quetzalcoalt, and the Mayan gods L and M, Xaman and Ekchuah these gods are depicted in the Codex Troano(Wiener, 1921, [vol.3] p.258). Sahagun tells us that Ekchuah was also the god of the Amanteca. The Nahuatl term Amanteca, was probably the name of the Mandinka or Mandinga people who were the foundation of the Olmec people (Winters, 2005).
Ekchuah and the Mayan God M, was the god of merchants and warriors. He is also depicted in the Codex Cortesianus and 17 times in the Madrid Codex.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
Vase from Chama Guatemala
A cursory examination of the vase makes it clear that the Mayan and Black personages are different. It ios interesting to note that the Mayan chiftain is painted black--but down around the chin area you can see that the personage was read skinned like the other Mayan personages.
Both Ekchuah and the Mayan people have elongated heads and they still don't look alike.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
The Black Costa Chicas or negrocostachicanos in a region where numerous artifacts have been found that indicate that Black cultures trives in Western Mexico, Belize, and Guatemala almost 2000 years before the Olmec sailed to mexico from Africa and landed on the Gulf coast of Mexico.
In Belize , around 2500 B.C., we see evidence of agriculture. The iconography of this period depicts Africoids. And at Izapa in 1358 B.C., astronomer-priests invented the first American calendar. In addition numerous sculptures of blacks dating to the 2nd millennium B.C, have been found at La Venta, Chiapas, Teotihuacan and Tlatilco.
Chiapas Blacks
The earliest culture founded by Blacks in the Pacific coats region was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex.
During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels.
The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female
The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
Cherla
In most history text the Ocos are presented as the original founders of Mayan civilization. As you can see from the art they do not look like native Americans they look negro like other Africans.
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xyyman Member # 13597
posted
^^ Great stuff Dr. Winters. Really interesting. Give me more.
However if you are relying on the pic above. Then there may be some confusion here.
Note: 4th standing guy from the left looks European. Implication????
3rd guy satdning looks African, like the huy on the right. Implication???
So. . . yes I agree it is only cursory they look different. Am I wrong??
astenb Member # 14524
posted
I have personally met people from Guatemala whom were black. One had grown up in the U.S. and identified himself as "Black."
xyyman Member # 13597
posted
Ahem. AstenB. African slaves were brought to ALL the Americas.
ALL = Canada - tip of Chile, including the Islands in between.
I think Clyde is talking pre-Slavery.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
After 800 BC the Olmec entered Western mexico. At this time it appears that the Mokaya were “Olmecizied”. At this time we see the introduction of Olmec ceramics, culture items and writing.
It is becoming increasingly clear that the Olmec played a prominent role in the rise of Mayan civilization. In Guatemala, we find jaguar stucco masks on the pyramids of EI Mirador Structure 34, Cerros Structure 5C-2nd, E-VII Sub at Takalik Uxaxatun, and Structure 5D 22-2nd at Tikal. These jaguar masks are identical to Olmec jaguar masks: Stela C Tres Zapotes, the La Venta Sarcophagus, and Monument 15 La Venta. In this presentation, we test the hypothesis that there is a correlation between the pre-Classic Guatemalan writing and the (Epi)Olmec writing of Mexico. The purpose of this project is to compare these symbols to fully decipher the inscriptions of Guatemala, and to learn more about the religious and political system of the pre-Classic Guatemalans.
Most researchers have assumed that this pyramid was built by the Maya. Although this is the popular view, this pyramid was probably built by the Olmec. And the Maya probably built a new pyramid over the original Olmec pyramid.
Under many pyramids found in Guatemala and Belize we find stucco-modeled jaguar pyramids. These pyramids with jaguar mask and large earrings predate all the Mayan pyramids. They are found at Uaxactun, Tikal and Cerros.
Most researchers have assumed that this pyramid was built by the Maya. Although this is the popular view, this pyramid was probably built by the Olmec. And the Maya probably built a new pyramid over the original Olmec pyramid.
Under many pyramids found in Guatemala and Belize we find stucco-modeled jaguar pyramids. These pyramids with jaguar mask and large earrings predate all the Mayan pyramids. They are found at Uaxactun, Tikal and Cerros.
We see new Black civilizations rise along the Pacific coast after 500 BC. Between 500-200 BC Guatemala was a center of Black civilizations. Some of these civilization include San Bartolo, Izapa and Kaminaljuyu. The founders of these civilizations were probably the ancestors of the Black Costa Chicas the negrocostachicanos.
The Negrocostachicanos are responsible for the pre-Classic pyramids the Maya built their pyramids upon. They left us numerous inscriptions on artifacts from Izapa, San Bartolo and Kuinaljuyu they may provide us with keen insight into their history and civilization.
Stone head From San Bartolo
The San Bartolo, Guatemala murals are very beautiful they were discovered by William Saturno of the University of New Hampshire. These murals were found in an unexcavated pyramid. Entering a looter’s trench Dr. Saturno dug into the pyramid and discovered the murals. Much of the mural was destroyed when the Maya built another pyramid over the original structure.
King Kali
The San Bartolo pyramid has two murals. One of the murals is of a procession of people on a boat . The other mural is of King Tali, sitting on his pyramid.
On the boat there are a number of figures. Moving from right to left we see four standing figures nearest the end of the boat. These figures are carrying bundles raised above their heads.
In front of these figures we see several symbols. These symbols provide context to the procession.
There are a number of female figures on the boat. The woman near the Corn God has writing symbols on their faces. The kneeling figure holding the vase on the far left side toward the end has the words gyo ti “righteous cult specialist” on her cheek.
The standing female figure in front of the last three symbols placed in front of the person carrying gifts has the words ti i “she is righteous” written on her cheek.
Another Black chiefdoms was situated at Kaminaljuyu. Mike provides an interesting monument from this site.
It is clear that Blacks along the Pacific coast the Negrocostachicanos are descendants of the original Africans who lived in Mexico, Belize and Guatemala for thousands of years. The Blacks along the Gulf are mainly of African Slave origin.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
Black Costa Chica
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
It is clear that Blacks along the Pacific coast the Negrocostachicanos are descendants of the original Blacks who lived in Mexico, Belize and Guatemala for thousands of years. The Blacks along the Gulf are mainly of African Slave origin.
When you look at the nose bones worn by these Guatemalans make you wonder if some of these folk came from Melanesia.
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Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Temple of the worriors Chichen-Itza I have always wondered about the guy in the middle about to sacrificed..like x-man said..a white guy??
Whoever and whereever these dark-skinned folks came from it is certain that they were amoung the lighter-skinned folks around them, Kinda remind you of the African traders in Asia thread.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Temple of the worriors Chichen-Itza I have always wondered about the guy in the middle about to sacrificed..like x-man said..a white guy??
Whoever and whereever these dark-skinned folks came from it is certain that they were amoung the lighter-skinned folks around them, Kinda remind you of the African traders in Asia thread.
posted
The Black Costa Chicas or negrocostachicanos in a region where numerous artifacts have been found that indicate that Black cultures trives in Western Mexico, Belize, and Guatemala almost 2000 years before the Olmec sailed to mexico from Africa and landed on the Gulf coast of Mexico.
In Belize , around 2500 B.C., we see evidence of agriculture. The iconography of this period depicts Africoids. And at Izapa in 1358 B.C., astronomer-priests invented the first American calendar. In addition numerous sculptures of blacks dating to the 2nd millennium B.C, have been found at La Venta, Chiapas, Teotihuacan and Tlatilco.
Chiapas Blacks
The earliest culture founded by Blacks in the Pacific coats region was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex.
During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels.
The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female
The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
Cherla
In most history text the Ocos are presented as the original founders of Mayan civilization. As you can see from the art they do not look like native Americans they look negro like other Africans.
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Mike111 Member # 9361
posted Brada-Anansi - I have always wondered about the guy in the middle about to sacrificed..like x-man said..a white guy??
There is no reason to assume that Whites or White hybrids, could not have been a part of the ancient American demographic - after all, after the White conquest of China, they had just as ready access to the Bering Straits as anybody else. This is proven by the fact that North AI do have White genes - to me the north American Indian is a clear hybrid with African and White.
That being said, there are also different racial conventions for depicting death.
Non-Whites often depict the dead or death as bloodless and lifeless i.e. White.
Whereas Whites depict death as mysterious and foreboding i.e. Black.
Mike111 Member # 9361
posted
Clyde - Do you have an explanation for why the artistic quality seems to have "Declined" over time?
This one is of the finest artistic quality, the one below, from a later date, is rather crude.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: Clyde - Do you have an explanation for why the artistic quality seems to have "Declined" over time?
This one is of the finest artistic quality, the one below, from a later date, is rather crude.
The major reason is that they were made at different times and by different people. As a result, the artistic quality of the artists would have varied.
The figure you present was probably one of the Africans who built the mound culture in this region. If I were to speculate he was probably a member of Abubakari's expedition of 1400. Are there radio-carbon dates assigned to this figure.
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Marc Washington Member # 10979
posted
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Great thread!!
Marc W.
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Bettyboo Member # 12987
posted
I have a Mexican friend and he told me the indigenous indians of Mexico sailed to the West coast of Africa when the land areas were closer for food and trade. He told me the indigenous groups came back with Africans and the Africans settled there and stayed. He said that the indigenous groups use to barter and trade with Africans from the western coast and that the Africans weren't strangers to them. The black people of Mexico today have admixture but you can see the blackness in them. I don't think that they are descendants of slaves because they would have history of it. My friend told me that the the trade and connection with Africans was taking place 1,000 B.C.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted Move it up.
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
look a man from Ghana:
Look Columbians:
they both have the brown skin tone of figures on this painting
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^^^^ incredible scientific analysis
Confirming Truth Member # 17678
posted
What the flying fvck is wrong with you Clyde?!?!?! Can't you see that the hunter is painted in black pigment. Look at his feet and hands for crying out loud!!!!! His feet and hands reveal his actual skin color, geez man!!! Are you fvcking retarded dude? You are seriously over the top with this black-washing agenda. I mean, some black-wash version of history is tolerable, but you dude, you fvcking take that shyt to the outter limits!
Zioncity Member # 18034
posted
Great thread Clyde Winters you can tell in the image above where the Mayan chief is painted black the area around his eyes and mouth are still visible.
Mike111 Member # 9361
posted Confirming Truth - Oh lookie, they're Black ALL OVER!!! I only deal with the REAL thing!
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Zioncity:
Great thread Clyde Winters you can tell in the image above where the Mayan chief is painted black the area around his eyes and mouth are still visible.
True that. the maya chief is painted black like the God Ekchuah standing before the chief. The God Ekchuah has typical African features dark colored feet and wears the traditional african priest jaguar (leopard) skin.
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Bettyboo Member # 12987
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Zioncity:
Great thread Clyde Winters you can tell in the image above where the Mayan chief is painted black the area around his eyes and mouth are still visible.
True that. the maya chief is painted black like the God Ekchuah standing before the chief. The God Ekchuah has typical African features dark colored feet and wears the traditional african priest jaguar (leopard) skin.
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You are delusional. The paintings depicts the indigenous people of the land.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Zioncity:
Great thread Clyde Winters you can tell in the image above where the Mayan chief is painted black the area around his eyes and mouth are still visible.
True that. the maya chief is painted black like the God Ekchuah standing before the chief. The God Ekchuah has typical African features dark colored feet and wears the traditional african priest jaguar (leopard) skin.
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You are delusional. The paintings depicts the indigenous people of the land.
Explain why you believe this is so. Or Shut Up.
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Bettyboo Member # 12987
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Zioncity:
Great thread Clyde Winters you can tell in the image above where the Mayan chief is painted black the area around his eyes and mouth are still visible.
True that. the maya chief is painted black like the God Ekchuah standing before the chief. The God Ekchuah has typical African features dark colored feet and wears the traditional african priest jaguar (leopard) skin.
.
You are delusional. The paintings depicts the indigenous people of the land.
Explain why you believe this is so. Or Shut Up.
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^Because it looks like so. The paintings don't look African at all. They look very indigenous. The figurines were better. You are getting carried away.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
Your comments betry delusion not mine. The fact the figure wearing the traditional African jaguar cloak does not look like the Mayan personage at all.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted Move it up.
Bettyboo Member # 12987
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your comments betry delusion not mine. The fact the figure wearing the traditional African jaguar cloak does not look like the Mayan personage at all.
/
^ This statement is sick at best. "Traditional African jaguar cloak." What the hell is a traditional African jaguar cloak? Is it something the Zulus wore? You're reaching. Jaguars roamed the Americas. How can you pass off something as common as animal skin as being traditionally African? I'm not even sure Jaguars are even native to the African continent.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your comments betry delusion not mine. The fact the figure wearing the traditional African jaguar cloak does not look like the Mayan personage at all.
/
^ This statement is sick at best. "Traditional African jaguar cloak." What the hell is a traditional African jaguar cloak? Is it something the Zulus wore? You're reaching. Jaguars roamed the Americas. How can you pass off something as common as animal skin as being traditionally African? I'm not even sure Jaguars are even native to the African continent.
In Africa it was the leapord skin.
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Bettyboo Member # 12987
posted
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your comments betry delusion not mine. The fact the figure wearing the traditional African jaguar cloak does not look like the Mayan personage at all.
/
^ This statement is sick at best. "Traditional African jaguar cloak." What the hell is a traditional African jaguar cloak? Is it something the Zulus wore? You're reaching. Jaguars roamed the Americas. How can you pass off something as common as animal skin as being traditionally African? I'm not even sure Jaguars are even native to the African continent.
In Africa it was the leapord skin.
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^In Africa what was the leopard skin?....the fvcking cloat? What part of Africa is this from. What west-african tribe wore leopard skin cloat and wore feathers in their head AND had a history of trading with indigenous Americans? You're reaching. So what that some tribes of Africa wore leopard cloats. What that have to do with native indigenous people of the Americas? Are you saying that Africans influenced the native indigenous people of the Americas fashion style. I don't get where you are going with this.
the lioness Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
quote:Originally posted by Bettyboo:
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Your comments betry delusion not mine. The fact the figure wearing the traditional African jaguar cloak does not look like the Mayan personage at all.
/
^ This statement is sick at best. "Traditional African jaguar cloak." What the hell is a traditional African jaguar cloak? Is it something the Zulus wore? You're reaching. Jaguars roamed the Americas. How can you pass off something as common as animal skin as being traditionally African? I'm not even sure Jaguars are even native to the African continent.
In Africa it was the leapord skin.
.
^In Africa what was the leopard skin?....the fvcking cloat? What part of Africa is this from. What west-african tribe wore leopard skin cloat and wore feathers in their head AND had a history of trading with indigenous Americans? You're reaching. So what that some tribes of Africa wore leopard cloats. What that have to do with native indigenous people of the Americas? Are you saying that Africans influenced the native indigenous people of the Americas fashion style. I don't get where you are going with this.
the animal is a jaguar,
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted Move it up.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
An African religious / political tradition transferred from Africa to Mexico
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
THERE ARE MANY OLMEC PYRAMIDS UNDER PRECLASSIC MAYAN PYRAMIDS .
THESE PYRAMIDS USUALLY INCLUDE AN OLMEC FAÇADE. THE EL-ZOTZ PYRAMID APPEARS TO BE AN OLMEC PYRAMID. THE ZOLZ PYRAMID IS NEAR TIKAL WHICH ALSO HAS A OLMEC PYRAMID UNDER THE STRUCTURE.
ARTIFACTS FROM Royal Tomb. El Diablo, El Zotz, Petén.
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