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Marc Washington and Clyde Winters, you afrounts claim the Greeks, Vickings, Olmecs, Incas and other obvious non-blacks were blacks. DO YOU ALL HAVE LOW SELF-esteem in REAL african accomplishments like this mud mosque>? And make up for it by stealing the accomplishments of non-blacks?
Bob_01 Member # 15687
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quote:Originally posted by J. Philippe Rushton: Marc Washington and Clyde Winters, you afrounts claim the Greeks, Vickings, Olmecs, Incas and other obvious non-blacks were blacks. DO YOU ALL HAVE LOW SELF-esteem in REAL african accomplishments like this mud mosque>? [I/G]http://www.cultureshocktherapy.com/pic/ml/djenne.jpg[/IMG] And make up for it by stealing the accomplishments of non-blacks?
Olmecs were probably black skinned indigenous peoples even present in the Americas today. They belong to the population that you see in Australia and Melanesia today.
Second, what the hell is "real" African? Ancient Egypt, along with the older Saharan and Sudan complex, are African. These were founded by dark, tropically adapted peoples, who are indigenous to the continent of Africa. Sounds like "real" African to me.
Third, I never claimed that Greek were black. Instead, I suggested that the Greek civilization was heavily influenced by Black Africans. Most reputable ACADEMIC literature points that out and we especially see it in their language script. I post here, because the term "Afronut", seems to include those who used scientific primary data, to back their claim that Ancient Egypt was founded by Black Africans.
Clyde Winters and Marc Washington used unorthodox sources, but remember, the intellectual table is still quite European. The fact that a white privileged brat like yourself can't access it to prove your position disappoints me. Such a waste of white skin, which by the way, I know is very precious in many nations due to the privilege associated with it.
Afronut Slayer Member # 16637
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To the OP:
In the event you do not know - "Dark skin" is the Afronuts trojan horse. That is how they are able to go in and steal another people's heritage. They will refer to dark skin people as "Black" in order to graft Afrikan Negroes into that foreign blood line. That way they can falsely claim the heritage.
Chrome-Soul Member # 16889
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quote:Originally posted by J. Philippe Rushton: Marc Washington and Clyde Winters, you afrounts claim the Greeks, Vickings, Olmecs, Incas and other obvious non-blacks were blacks. DO YOU ALL HAVE LOW SELF-esteem in REAL african accomplishments like this mud mosque>? And make up for it by stealing the accomplishments of non-blacks?
Actually that mosque is quite nice.
Bob_01 Member # 15687
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quote:Originally posted by Afronut Slayer: To the OP:
In the event you do not know - "Dark skin" is the Afronuts trojan horse. That is how they are able to go in and steal another people's heritage. They will refer to dark skin people as "Black" in order to graft Afrikan Negroes into that foreign blood line. That way they can falsely claim the heritage.
Idiot. I meant black skin. Tropically adapted people. Academic evidence and reality are on our side, my Eurocentric friend.
Have you ever seen indigenous people in Australia? The people are usually much darker than African-Americans. That population isn't even that dark! Obviously people going to assume that they're African even though genetics suggest they're more closely related to Asians.
The fact that we know how to construct arguments, is why we're better men. Go back to the kitchen, bettyboo, and shut the hell up. This is another case of a wasting white skin. These debates and challenges are so sub-intellectual. I never see evidence on your side, just useless, anonymous opinions.
As I said earlier, less posting, and more emphasis on reading.
Socrates is identified as an African or Black, not due to his flat nose but his heritage as an Athenian.
As a result of the research of Parker (1917,1918) and Winters (1983b), when Lefkowitz (1992) argues that Socrates could not have been black because he was an Athenian citizen. Because it is her opinion that the Athenians were not of African origin.
This is false. Greek traditions make it clear that Pelasgians which were not Indo-European speakers founded the city of Athens. The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes . The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas".
The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
One can not say that Socrates' racial heritage was not Black because the Greeks made it clear that the founders of Athens were Pelasgians . Since Socrates was an Athenian he was a descendant of the first Blacks to settle Greece.
The textual evidence makes it clear that the founders of Athens were Blacks. Since Socrates was an Athenian he carried this negro heritage.
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Bob_01 Member # 15687
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Clyde Winters, may you cite primary evidence (literature) supporting your arguments?
quote:Greek traditions make it clear that Pelasgians which were not Indo-European speakers founded the city of Athens.
I understand that Indo-Europeans entered and displaced the previous non-IE peoples. However I haven't seem much literature regarding that.
It is clearly stated in literature that the Anatolians resembled the prototypical, "true Negroes" of West Africa. However that began changing after the Neolithic when lighter skin migrants were able to enter from North Asia or Europe.
quote:The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes.
The Neolithic population, who were called Pelasgians, began to differentiate and started to resemble black skinned populations found in India.
I wouldn't call them Africam though, but rather of Asian origin. However African gene flow into the region is high suggesting a large African presence as well.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
Socrates is identified as an African or Black, not due to his flat nose but his heritage as an Athenian.
As a result of the research of Parker (1917,1918) and Winters (1983b), when Lefkowitz (1992) argues that Socrates could not have been black because he was an Athenian citizen. Because it is her opinion that the Athenians were not of African origin.
This is false. Greek traditions make it clear that Pelasgians which were not Indo-European speakers founded the city of Athens. The Greeks often called the first inhabitants of Greece Pelasgians. The Greek writers claimed that Pelasgus, the great ancestor of the Pelasgians was the first man. The Pelasgians were a combination of diverse Black tribes . The Garamantes were also often called Pelasgians by some classical writers. Strabo said "that the Pelasgi, as indeed the most ancient nation, were diffused through all Greece, and especially among the Aeolians".
The city of Argo was founded by Phoroneus, the father of Pelasgus, Iasus and Agenor. It was these folks who divided the Peloponnese between them.
Herodotus referred to the Pelasgians as "venerable ancestors". He said that the first Athenians "they were Pelasgi, the later possessing the country now designed Hellas".
The Pelasgian founding of Athens is also noted by Plutarch in Theseus 12, and Ovid in Metamorphosis vii.402ff. According to Herodotus vii.91, the Pelasgians also founded Thebes in Europe. Pausanias, noted that "The Arcadians make mention of Pelasgus as the first person who existed in their country. From this king the whole region took the name Pilasgia". Hopper noted that the Pelasgians founded Attica.
One can not say that Socrates' racial heritage was not Black because the Greeks made it clear that the founders of Athens were Pelasgians . Since Socrates was an Athenian he was a descendant of the first Blacks to settle Greece.
The textual evidence makes it clear that the founders of Athens were Blacks. Since Socrates was an Athenian he carried this negro heritage.
.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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The Olmecs were not the first Africans to create a civilization in Mexico. These Africans came from the ancient Sahara and West Africa. Even before the Mande speaking Olmec arrived in Mexico, there were African communities in existence.
Africans founded many of the earliest civilizations in the New World. We do not know when these Blacks arrived in the Americas. Scientists theorize that over 5000 years ago a group of African settlers sailing along the West African coast, in their papyrus trading vessels were caught in a storm and drifted aimlessly out to sea. In the Atlantic ocean they were captured by the South Equatorial current and carried across the Atlantic towards the Americas.
We can assume that due to the ability of these explorers to navigate by the stars they were probably able to make a return trip to West Africa. Much of West Africa 5000 years ago was unoccupied. This means that the populations that later moved into West Africa were living in Middle Africa,and the Sahara. These people due to a different climate in the Sahara at this time traveled from community to community by sea. It seems logical to assume that one of these Paleo-African groups travelled down the long extinct rivers of Middle Africa and sailed out into the Atlantic Ocean and was carried to the Americas by the powerful currents found in the Atlantic Ocean.
Mexico and Central America were centers of African civilization 5000 years ago. In Belize , around 2500 B.C., we see evidence of agriculture. The iconography of this period depicts Africoids. And at Izapa in 1358 B.C., astronomer-priests invented the first American calendar. In addition numerous sculptures of blacks dating to the 2nd millennium B.C, have been found at La Venta, Chiapas, Teotihuacan and Tlatilco.
Chiapas Blacks
The African voyagers to the New World came here in papyrus boats. A stone stela from Izapa, Chiapas in southern Mexico show the boats these Africans came in when they sailed to the Americas. These boats were carried across the Atlantic ocean to Mexico and Brazil, by the North Equatorial current which meets the Canaries Current off the Senegambian coast. It is interesting to note that papyrus boats are still being built in West Africa today.
The earliest culture founded by Blacks in Mexico was the Mokaya tradition. The Mokaya tradition was situated on the Pacific coast of Mexico in the Soconusco region. Sedentary village life began as early as 2000BC. By 1700-1500 BC we see many African communities in the Mazatan region. This is called the Barra phase or Ocos complex.
During the Barra phase these Blacks built villages amd made beautiful ceramic vessels often with three legs. They also made a large number of effigy vessels.
The figurines of the Ocos are the most significant evidence for Blacks living in the area during this period. The female figurine from Aquiles Serdan is clearly that of an African woman. Ocos Female
The Blacks of the Mokaya traditions were not Olmec. The civilization of the Mokaya traditions began 700 years before the Olmec arrived in Mexico.
Cherla
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
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Not only nice but smart since the used the most aboundant material at hand..btw if we ever colonize the moon or build a base guess what material we would be using?...
another example of local material being used
Great Zimbabwe
So you like stone?
And if you think I am gonna walk away from the Black lands...Kemet and Kush just to make you happy think again.made in Africa by Africans for Africans Mussawarrat [IMG] IF you don't know what you are looking at,well read on Much about the history of the Eredo is murky, and Nigerian archaeologists have been less than enthusiastic about field work. But what is known is that it encloses an area 30 times bigger than Manhattan. According to Patrick Darling, a British archaeologist who has studied the Eredo for 10 years, it is related to the massive Benin earthworks nearby, which he says may be “the largest single archaeological phenomenon on the planet.”
We walked along the bottom of the moat, and on both sides the ancient mud wall rose up. In some places, the Eredo had been 70-feet high. Little is known about the kingdom inside it, other than the connection to Bilikisu Sungbo, whose grave now sits along the wall to the north and is still a pilgrimage site. It may have been built by the Awujale dynasty after Bilikisu died. Much of that history has been lost, or must be untangled from stories, but according to Darling, the Eredo wasn’t strictly for defense. For those protected by it, it was the border between the real world inside, and the spirit world outside. Today that seems to have been reversed. The real world seems far away, while the wall has kept its own secrets and spirits within.
Overhead, the trees had grown across from each side making the moat into a dark tunnel through the forest. How would you know this massive rampart once contained a huge civilization? The Eredo was now so hidden that I didn’t know the hill we came over was the wall itself. www.worldhum.com/images/uploads/eredowallmain.jpg
Bob_01 Member # 15687
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Winters, do you have evidence suggesting that the Mande scripture is related to the Olmec counterpart? I am not linguist, but there ought to be data, within mainstream academic avenues, backing your position.
One more point...
My claim that the Afro-Asiatic populations who founded Anatolian civilization differentiating into black-skinned Asiatic peoples, has much to do with the depictions of the inhabitants living in the Aegian civilization.
I haven't seen morphological data suggesting that the population clustered closer to East Indians. However it is generally assumed that it is the case. Regardless, African input into the region is immense.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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The archaeological evidence suggest that the Olmec "miraculously appear on American soil".
Some researchers claim that I am wrongly ruling out an “indigenous revolution” for the origin of the Olmec civilization. This is their opinion—the archaeological evidence, not I, suggest that the founders of the Olmec civilization were not “indigenous” people.
In the Olmec World: Ritual and Rulership (1995), (ed.) by Carolyn Tate, on page 65, we find the following statement”Olmec culture as far as we know seems to have no antecedents; no material models remain for its monumental constructions and sculptures and the ritual acts captured in small objects”.
M. Coe, writing in Regional Perspective on the Olmecs (1989), (ed.) by Sharer and Grove, observed that “ on the contrary, the evidence although negative, is that the Olmec style of art, and Olmec engineering ability suddenly appeared full fledged from about 1200 BC”.
Mary E. Pye, writing in Olmec Archaeology in Mesoamerica (2000), (ed.) by J.E. Cark and M.E. Pye,makes it clear after a discussion of the pre-Olmec civilizations of the Mokaya tradition, that these cultures contributed nothing to the rise of the Olmec culture. Pye wrote “The Mokaya appear to have gradually come under Olmec influence during Cherla times and to have adopted Olmec ways. We use the term olmecization to describe the processes whereby independent groups tried to become Olmecs, or to become like the Olmecs” (p.234). Pye makes it clear that it was around 1200 BC that Olmec civilization rose in Mesoamerica. She continues “Much of the current debate about the Olmecs concerns the traditional mother culture view. For us this is still a primary issue. Our data from the Pacific coast show that the mother culture idea is still viable in terms of cultural practices. The early Olmecs created the first civilization in Mesoamerica; they had no peers, only contemporaries” (pp.245-46).
Richard A. Diehl The Olmecs:America’s first civilization (2005), wrote “ The identity of these first Olmecs remains a mystery. Some scholars believe they were Mokaya migrants from the Pacific coast of Chiapas who brought improved maize strains and incipient social stratification with them. Others propose that Olmec culture evolved among the local indigenous populations without significant external stimulus. I prefer the latter position, but freely admit that we lack sufficient information on the period before 1500 BC to resolve the issue” (p.25).
Pool (17-18), in Olmec Archaeology and early MesoAmerica (2007), argues that continuity exist between the Olmec and pre-Olmec cultures in Mexico “[even]though Coe now appears to favor an autochthonous origin for Olmec culture (Diehl & Coe 1995:150), he long held that the Olmec traits appeared at San Lorenzo rather suddenly during the Chicharras phase (ca 1450-1408 BC) (Coe 1970a:25,32; Coe and Diehl 1980a:150)”.
Pool admits (p.95), that “this conclusion contrasts markedly with that of the excavators of San Lorenzo, who reported dramatic change in ceramic type and [b] argued on this basis for a foreign incursion of Olmecs into Olman (Coe and Diehl 1980a, p.150).”
The evidence presented by these authors make it clear that the Olmec introduced a unique culture to Mesoamerica that was adopted by the Mesoamericans. As these statements make it clear that was no continuity between pre-Olmec cultures and the Olmec culture.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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quote:Originally posted by Bob_01: Winters, do you have evidence suggesting that the Mande scripture is related to the Olmec counterpart? I am not linguist, but there ought to be data, within mainstream academic avenues, backing your position.
One more point...
My claim that the Afro-Asiatic populations who founded Anatolian civilization differentiating into black-skinned Asiatic peoples, has much to do with the depictions of the inhabitants living in the Aegian civilization.
I haven't seen morphological data suggesting that the population clustered closer to East Indians. However it is generally assumed that it is the case. Regardless, African input into the region is immense.
Why do you assume Eurocentric scholars would be interested in admiting Blacks founded Olmec civilization?
The first researcher to recognize that the Olmec writing was Mande was Leo Wiener, in Africa and the discovery of America. He recognized that the writing on the Tuxtla statuette was written in Mande characters.
Mojarra Stela .
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Tuxtla Statuette
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that the some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Wiercinski discovered that 13.5 percent of the skeletons from Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the skeletons from Cerro de las Mesas were Africoid (Rensberger,1988; Wiercinski, 1972; Wiercinski & Jairazbhoy 1975).
Diehl and Coe (1995, 12) of Harvard University have made it clear that until a skeleton of an African is found on an Olmec site he will not accept the art evidence that the were Africans among the Olmecs. This is rather surprising because Constance Irwin and Dr. Wiercinski (1972) have both reported that skeletal remains of Africans have been found in Mexico. Constance Irwin, in Fair Gods and Stone Faces, says that anthropologist see "distinct signs of Negroid ancestry in many a New World skull...."
Dr. Wiercinski (1972) claims that some of the Olmecs were of African origin. He supports this claim with skeletal evidence from several Olmec sites where he found skeletons that were analogous to the West African type black. Many Olmec skulls show cranial deformations (Pailles, 1980), yet Wiercinski (1972b) was able to determine the ethnic origins of the Olmecs. Marquez (1956, 179-80) made it clear that a common trait of the African skulls found in Mexico include marked prognathousness ,prominent cheek bones are also mentioned. Fronto-occipital deformation among the Olmec is not surprising because cranial deformations was common among the Mande speaking people until fairly recently (Desplanges, 1906).
Many African skeletons have been found in Mexico. Carlo Marquez (1956, pp.179-180) claimed that these skeletons indicated marked pronathousness and prominent cheek bones.
Wiercinski found African skeletons at the Olmec sites of Monte Alban, Cerro de las Mesas and Tlatilco. Morley, Brainerd and Sharer (1989) said that Monte Alban was a colonial Olmec center (p.12).
Diehl and Coe (1996) admitted that the inspiration of Olmec Horizon A, common to San Lorenzo's iniitial phase has been found at Tlatilco. Moreover, the pottery from this site is engraved with Olmec signs.
According to Wiercinski (1972b) Africans represented more than 13.5 percent of the skeletal remains found at Tlatilco and 4.5 percent of the Cerro remains (see Table 2). Wiercinski (1972b) studied a total of 125 crania from Tlatilco and Cerro.
There were 38 males and 62 female crania in the study from Tlatilco and 18 males and 7 females from Cerro. Whereas 36 percent of the skeletal remains were of males, 64 percent were women (Wiercinski, 1972b).
To determine the racial heritage of the ancient Olmecs, Dr. Wiercinski (1972b) used classic diagnosticraits determined by craniometric and cranioscopic methods. These measurements were then compared to a series of three crania sets from Poland, Mongolia and Uganda to represent the three racial categories of mankind.
In Table 1, we have the racial composition of the Olmec skulls. The only European type recorded in this table is the Alpine group which represents only 1.9 percent of the crania from Tlatilco. Table 1.Olmec Races
. The other alleged "white" crania from Wiercinski's typology of Olmec crania, represent the Dongolan (19.2 percent), Armenoid (7.7 percent), Armenoid-Bushman (3.9 percent) and Anatolian (3.9 percent). The Dongolan, Anatolian and Armenoid terms are euphemisms for the so-called "Brown Race" "Dynastic Race", "Hamitic Race",and etc., which racist Europeans claimed were the founders of civilization in Africa.
Table 2: Racial Composition:
. Poe (1997), Keita (1993,1996), Carlson and Gerven (1979)and MacGaffey (1970) have made it clear that these people were Africans or Negroes with so-called 'caucasian features' resulting from genetic drift and microevolution (Keita, 1996; Poe, 1997). This would mean that the racial composition of 26.9 percent of the crania found at Tlatilco and 9.1 percent of crania from Cerro de las Mesas were of African origin.
In Table 2, we record the racial composition of the Olmec according to the Wiercinski (1972b) study. The races recorded in this table are based on the Polish Comparative-Morphological School (PCMS). The PCMS terms are misleading. As mentioned earlier the Dongolan , Armenoid, and Equatorial groups refer to African people with varying facial features which are all Blacks. This is obvious when we look at the iconographic and sculptural evidence used by Wiercinski (1972b) to support his conclusions.
Wiercinski (1972b) compared the physiognomy of the Olmecs to corresponding examples of Olmec sculptures and bas-reliefs on the stelas. For example, Wiercinski (1972b, p.160) makes it clear that the clossal Olmec heads represent the Dongolan type. It is interesting to note that the emperical frequencies of the Dongolan type at Tlatilco is .231, this was more than twice as high as Wiercinski's theorectical figure of .101, for the presence of Dongolans at Tlatilco.
The other possible African type found at Tlatilco and Cerro were the Laponoid group. The Laponoid group represents the Austroloid-Melanesian type of (Negro) Pacific Islander, not the Mongolian type. If we add together the following percent of the Olmecs represented in Table 2, by the Laponoid (21.2%), Equatorial (13.5), and Armenoid (18.3) groups we can assume that at least 53 percent of the Olmecs at Tlatilco were Africans or Blacks. Using the same figures recorded in Table 2 for Cerro,we observe that 40.8 percent of these Olmecs would have been classified as Black if they lived in contemporary America.
Rossum (1996) has criticied the work of Wiercinski because he found that not only blacks, but whites were also present in ancient America. To support this view he (1) claims that Wiercinski was wrong because he found that Negro/Black people lived in Shang China, and 2) that he compared ancient skeletons to modern Old World people.
First, it was not surprising that Wiercinski found affinities between African and ancient Chinese populations, because everyone knows that many Negro/African /Oceanic skeletons (referred to as Loponoid by the Polish school) have been found in ancient China see: Kwang-chih Chang The Archaeology of ancient China (1976,1977, p.76,1987, pp.64,68). These Blacks were spread throughout Kwangsi, Kwantung, Szechwan, Yunnan and Pearl River delta.
Skeletons from Liu-Chiang and Dawenkou, early Neolithic sites found in China, were also Negro. Moreover, the Dawenkou skeletons show skull deformation and extraction of teeth customs, analogous to customs among Blacks in Polynesia and Africa.
This makes it clear that we can not ignore the evidence. I have tried to keep up with the literature in this field over the past 30 years and I would appreciate someone reproducing on this forum citations of the articles which have conclusively disconfirmed the skeletal evidence of Wiercinski.
The fact remains African skeletons were found in Mesoamerica. This archaeological evidence supports the view that the Olmec were predominately African when we examine the anthropological language used to describe the Olmec skeletons analyzed by Wiercinski. See: http://www.olmec98.net/Skeletal.htm
References
Carlson,D. and Van Gerven,D.P. (1979). Diffussion, biological determinism and bioculdtural adaptation in the Nubian corridor,American Anthropologist, 81, 561-580.
Desplagnes, M. (1906). Deux nouveau cranes humains de cites lacustres. L'Anthropologie, 17, 134-137.
Diehl, R. A., & Coe, M.D. (1995). "Olmec archaeology". In In Jill Guthrie (Ed.), Ritual and Rulership, (pp.11-25). The Art Museum: Princeton University Press.
Irwin,C.Fair Gods and Stone Faces.
Keita,S.O.Y. (1993). Studies and comments on ancient Egyptian biological relationships, History in Africa, 20, 129-131.
Keita,S.O.Y.& Kittles,R.A. (1997). The persistence of racial thinking and the myth of racial divergence, American Anthropologist, 99 (3), 534-544.
MacGaffey,W.(1970). Comcepts of race in Northeast Africa. In J.D. Fage and R.A. Oliver, Papers in African Prehistory (pp.99-115), Camridge: Cambridge University Press.
Marquez,C.(1956). Estudios arqueologicas y ethnograficas. Mexico.
Rensberger, B. ( September, 1988). Black kings of ancient America", Science Digest, 74-77 and 122.
Underhill,P.A.,Jin,L., Zemans,R., Oefner,J and Cavalli-Sforza,L.L.(1996, January). A pre-Columbian Y chromosome-specific transition and its implications for human evolutionary history, Proceedings of the National Academy of Science USA,93, 196-200.
Von Wuthenau, Alexander. (1980). Unexplained Faces in Ancient America, 2nd Edition, Mexico 1980.
Wiercinski, A.(1969). Affinidades raciales de algunas poblaiones antiquas de Mexico, Anales de INAH, 7a epoca, tomo II, 123-143.
Wiercinski,A. (1972). Inter-and Intrapopulational Racial Differentiation of Tlatilco, Cerro de Las Mesas, Teothuacan, Monte Alban and Yucatan Maya, XXXlX Congreso Intern. de Americanistas, Lima 1970 ,Vol.1, 231-252.
Wiercinski,A. (1972b). An anthropological study on the origin of "Olmecs", Swiatowit ,33, 143-174.
Wiercinski, A. & Jairazbhoy, R.A. (1975) "Comment", The New Diffusionist,5 (18),5.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
The Olmec came from Saharan Africa. They spoke a Mande language. Evidence of this connection comes from the fact:
1) both groups used jade to make their tools.
2) both groups made large stone heads. Here is an African head dating back to the same period.
3) The Mande came to Mexico in boats from the Sahara down the ancient Niger River that formerly emptied in the Sahara or they could have made their way to the Atlantic Ocean down the Senegal River.
4) The Olmec writing points back to a Mande origin in Africa.
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5) Olmec skeletons that are African.
6) Similar white, and red-and-black pottery.
7) Introduction of the 13 month 20 day calendar.
8) Mayan adoption of the Mande term for writing.
9)Mande religious and culture terms adopted by Mayan people.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
The Olmec religion or cult associations provide the best example of Mande: Malinke-Bambara cultural influences among the Olmecs. The best source of information on the Malinke-Bambara religion is G. Dieterlen (1957) Essai sur le religion Bambara . Dieterlen makes it clear that the Mande culture was transmitted within the Komow : traditional secret society of the Mande.
The two main deities of the Mande were Bemba and Faro. Bemba was the invisible Creator of mankind. Faro, was the visible god who was recognized as androgynous (male-female). The symbol of faro was twins. As a result, in traditional Malinke-Bambara society twins represented the two fold nature of Faro
We learn from the Dieterlen that the first Bambara-Malinke ancestors transformed into Birds and hyenas (Felines). This tradition led to the origin of the two major Mande cult associations Kuno (Bird) and Nama (Feline), gyo/jo ‘cult associations
The Nama (feline) initiatory society was organized to maintain order within society. The members of this jo were to insure ceremonial unity and defeat sorcery The leader of the Nama Jo , wear mask which combine totems of komo, horns and the mask represented immense spiritual power according to Zahan Dominique (1974), The Bambara .
The Komo was administered by sculptor-smiths. Their role was to guard society from people committing antisocial acts and protect people from malevolent spirits.
The leader of the Jo cult association was the Komo-tigi ‘chief of the komo’ . The Komo, teaches initiates ‘leadership’, self-sufficiency, military prowess and scientific knowledge.
The komo acculturated the Mande children. Thusly the children in the komo were called tigi-denw: ‘children of the tigi’ . The children often served as tigi-tuguw “carriers of the torches’.
The children belonged to the ntomo or n’domo . The ntomo association was charged with making the initiates “noble”.
And understanding of the traditional, pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke-Bambara allows us an intimate understanding of the Olmec religion.
The principal Olmec cult associations was that of the bird and the feline. This religious tradition of the Olmec, passed on to the Maya, are mentioned in the Book of Chumayel, which maintains that the three main cult associations that are suppose to have existed in ancient times were (1) the stone (cutters) cult, (2) the jaguar cult and (3) the bird cult. In lines 4-6 of the Book of Chumayel , we read that "Those with their sign in the bird, those with their sign in the stone, flat worked stone, those with their sign in the Jaguar-three emblems-".(Brotherston 1979).
The Olmec left testimony to this religious tradition in their art. These documents in sto ne indicate that the Olmec had to cult associations that of the Bird Mask and that of the Feline Mask. The Book of Chumayel, corresponds to the gylphs depicted on Monument 13 at La Venta .
. On Monument 13, at La Venta a personage in profile, he has a headress on his head and wears a breechcloth, jewels and sandals, along with four glyphs listed one above the other. The glyphs included the stone, the jaguar, and the bird emblems. Monument 13, at La Venta also has a fourth sign to the left of the personage a foot gylphs. This monument has been described as an altar or a low column.
The foot in Olmec is called "se", this symbols means to "lead or advance toward knowledge, or success". The "se" (foot) sign of the komow (cults) represent the beginning of the Olmec initiates pursuit of knowledge.
The meaning of Monument 13, reading from top to bottom, are a circle kulu/ kaba (the stone), nama (jaguar) and the kuno (bird). The interpretation of this column reading from left to right is "The advance toward success--power--for the initiate is obedience to the stone cutters cult, jaguar cult and the bird cult". The Jaguar mask association dominated the Olmec Gulf region.
In the central and southern Olmec regions we find the bird mask association predominate as typified by the Xoc bas relief of Chiapas, and the Bas Relief No.2, of Chalcatzingo. Another bird mask cult association was located in the state of Guerrero as evidenced by the humano-bird figure of the Stelae from San Miguel Amuco.
The religious orders spoken of in this stela are the Bird and Jaguar cults. These Olmec cults were Nama or the Humano-Jaguar cult; and Kuno or Bird cult. The leader of the Nama cult was called the Nama-tigi (see Nama chief Illustration 7 Stela No.5 Izapa) , or Amatigi (head of the faith). The leader of the Kuno cult was the Kuno-tigi (Kuno chief see Illustration 6 Stela No.5). These cult leaders initiated the Olmec into the mysteries of the cult.
Among the Olmecs this flame signified the luminous character of knowledge. The Kuno priest wears a conical hat(see Illustration No.6). The evidence of the conical hat on the Kuno priest is important evidence of the Manding in ancient America. The conical hat in Meso-America is associated with Amerindian priesthood and as a symbol of political and religious authority . Leo Wiener (1922, v.II: p.321) wrote that: "That the kingly and priestly cap of the Magi should have been preserved in America in the identical form, with the identical decoration,and should, besides, have kept the name current for it among the Mandingo [Malinke-Bambara/Manding] people , makes it impossible to admit any other solution than the one that the Mandingoes established the royal offices in Mexico".
Acculturation of children was an important part duty of the Olmec priesthood. As a result we find many examples of children being provided knowledge by the priest.
The Olmec child is very evident in Olmec art. To the Olmec childhood represent the primitive state of mankind, when man was pure and ignorant of nature. Thus the child in Olmec art represents the human being when he left his creator’s hands: uncircumcised and androgynous.
Adults respected children very much. This view is supported by the motifs on Altar No.5 of LaVenta. On this monument we see a personage emerging from the stone altar with the glyph po gbe ‘Pure Righteousness’ on his headdress. He is carrying a babe in his arms resting on his lap.
On the other side of the monument we see two personages, each with a different helmet style. These scenes suggest that the Olmec child was to learn wisdom, this is illustrated by the animated conversation between the child and the priest.
On the right-hand side we see a priest and a child again. This time the priest has a snake on his helmet. Instead of carrying the child on his lap in this scene, the child is carried on the personage’s side and wearing a jaguar mask. This indicates that once the child completed the initiation he was recognized a individual to be respected capable of giving advise to adults.
These examples from Olmec iconography make it clear that the Olmec religion is exactly the same as the pre-Islamic religion of the Malinke Bambara.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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The Mayan Indians claimed that the Olmec people were named Xi (Shi). It was the Olmec people who gave the Mayan people writing.
The Mayan people also adopted their writing system and name for writing from the Olmec people . Landa noted that the Yucatec Maya claimed that they got writing from a group of foreigners called Tutul Xiu from Nonoulco (Tozzer, 1941).
The Tutul Xi were probably Manding speaking Olmecs (1) . The term Tutul Xiu, can be translated using Manding as follows: Tutul(2) , "Very good subjects of the Order"; and Xiu(3) , "The Shi (/the race)".This phrase would therefore be interpreted as follows: "The Shis (who) are very good Subjects of the cult-Order".
In the Chilam Balam, of Chumayel, zuiva, is spelled zuyua. This document declares that the "head chiefs" of towns were periodically examined in the language of zuyua.
The language of zuyua was supposed to have been understood by the Mayan elites. Scholars are not sure about the meaning of the mysterious term zuyua. But, it has affinity to Olmec terms.
The actual sound value of /z/ in zuyua is /s/. If we compare zuyua, with Olmec su-yu-a, and zuiva with Olmec su-i-wa we find interesting meanings which suggest that zuyua was probably a secret code taught the Mayan chiefs by the Olmecs who taught them civilization. In Olmec su-yu-a can be translated as the 'Shaper of Life", while su-i-wa means the "Shaper of Good" or "the thing which hurries your welfare".
These translations of su-i-wa and su-yu-a, are interesting because they are associated with leadership, and the role of both secular and religious leaders in the community, make them semantically appropriate terms to interpret zuyua or zuiva. This results from the fact that the Olmec chief or priest is a shaper of the welfare of his people and it was only natural that this specialist probably had to know secret terms and symbols ( Mayan writing ) to manifest the great power(s) surrounding their office.
Notes:
1. This view is supported by the Olmec language. In the Olmec language the term tu, means 'association, law, supporters of the order'. In Olmec the -l is the suffix of augmentative value e.g., faka -ma 'king', faka -ma-la 'Supreme King'; and the -u element was the plural suffix added to names e.g.,Xi 'The Black' , Xiu 'The Blacks'. Thusly, in Manding we can read the terms Xiu Tutul as : "The Xis (Blacks) (belonging to) the association of the supreme supporters of the Order(/Cult).
2. This -l, in Tutu-l, is probably the suffix of augmentation.
3. The -u, element is the plural suffix for the Manding languages.
Reference:
Landa, D. de. (1978). Yucatan before and after the Conquest. (Trans. by) William Gates. New York: Dover Publications.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted Here we have three examples of Mande writing the first picture is writing from a modern site.
Picture 2 is writing on the Tuxtla statuette from Mexico.
Picture 3 writing during the chariot age.
Note the symbol made up of squares with dots inside.
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Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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Before you ask me if my work has been presented to the public at professional conferences the answer is yes.
I have presented my work on the Olmec at many National and International Conferences.
Friday, April 16th ... in Highland Chiapas. 9:30. Clyde Winters (Loyola U - Chicago) Olmec Symbolism in the Mayan Writing. 9:50. Nestor Quiroa (U Illinois ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg99/program/pfri.html
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Saturday, April 17th ... 11:15. Samuel Cooper (Bar Ilan U) The Classification of Biblical Sacrifice. 11:35. Clyde Winters (Loyola U - Chicago) Harappan Origins of Yogi. 11:55. ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg99/program/psat.html
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preliminary program csas98 ... Mexican Villages. 4:10 Clyde A. Winters (Uthman dan Fodio I) Jaguar Kings: Olmec Royalty and Religious Leaders in the First Person. 4:30
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Thursday April, 3 - Early Afternoon ... Russia [1413]. 2:30 pm - Clyde A. Winters (Uthman dan Fodio Institute) - The Decipherment of Olmec Writing [1414]. 2:50 pm - James ... www.aaanet.org/csas/mtg97/final.htm
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by Bob_01:
One more point...
My claim that the Afro-Asiatic populations who founded Anatolian civilization differentiating into black-skinned Asiatic peoples, has much to do with the depictions of the inhabitants living in the Aegian civilization.
I haven't seen morphological data suggesting that the population clustered closer to East Indians. However it is generally assumed that it is the case. Regardless, African input into the region is immense.
The Anatolian Blacks Hatti, and etc were Kushites. They did not speak Afro-Asiatic languages.
Check out this film for information on the Asian Kushites.
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