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ARE INDIANS BLACKS?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] The homeland of Indo-European is in the Asian steppes and not within the Geographical confines of what is now considered "Europe". That is my point. These people were more Asian than European, no matter how light or dark they were. Europeans only got the language later due to both linguistic diffusion and some physical diffusion towards the West. The actual European part of Indo-European is in my opinion younger, but the only reason some propose it as older is because they lump the Greek and Baltic branches with the older Mesopotamian and Indus branches which is pure nonsense. My point being that Harrapan, even though it is not translated, is most likely a branch of this language and if so is the oldest surviving example of such. Indo-European in my opinion is a language that started in and around India and spread to Europe.[/qb][/QUOTE]You speak as if there is truly a distinction between Europe and Asia when we know there is non either georgraphically or genetically. Europe is as much a subcontinent of Asia as is India, and European peoples are continuous to Asian peoples, hence the common use of 'Eurasia'. In many ways this is similar to the peoples of the Levant and Arabia being segregated to Asia only even though Africa is right beside it and the Semitic languages there are derived from Africa. As far as your opinion goes, I stick by linguistics. And linguistics shows that Vedic Sanskrit is about as old as Achaean Greek and that the Hittite language Nasili is slightly older than both. This along with the fact that Europe has the most diversity possessing most of the subfamilies while Indo-Iranian is the largest and most diverse sub-family with the most languages only points to an origin between these regions in the Russian steppes between Europe and west Central Asia is more likely. As for the Harappan language. Virtually all scholars agree that it is NOT an Indo-European langauge and possess many features alien to it. While the script has not been translated, language syntax programs suggest affinities with Dravidian languages more than anything else. [QUOTE][qb]The fact is that there is not enough evidence to actually know for sure where the origin of indo-European is geographically. The theories about Andronovo are purely speculative and based on theoretical reconstruction. Andronovo is a long way from India. And the idea that Vedic represents the spread of this language into India proper only makes sense if you ignore the language of Mojenjo Daro and the Harrappan complex, which is older than the theoretical spread of vedic languages in India.[/qb][/QUOTE]Again, you assume that Harappan is Vedic culture when both archaeology and linguistics show that it isn't. As I stated the origin of Indo-European can be deduced from language distribution. The majority of brances are located in Europe while Indo-Iranian in Asia is the largest and most diverse of all the branches. The second largest and diverse branc after Indo-Iranian is Slavic. There was also an Anatolian branch spoken in the Near East such as Hittite and Armenian exists today as an isolate branch in the Caucasus. You are also assuming that Indo-European was the only language group in central Asia that existed. There is a total language isolate called Burushaski spoken in northern Pakistan that shows a subtle influence in Vedic Sanskrit and many scholars think was part of a more extensive family in Central Asia where the Andronovo culture later became dominant. There was even shown to be Burshaski influence in other IE languages in words for certain objects like the fruit apple. And again Harappan likely represents Dravidian since all the features of Harappan civilization are preserved more fully among Dravidian speakers and was unknown or alien to Vedic Sanskrit. [QUOTE][qb]This is Europe: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/39/Europe_polar_stereographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary.svg/700px-Europe_polar_stereographic_Caucasus_Urals_boundary.svg.png[/IMG] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe Andronovo Culture: [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Indo-Iranian_origins.png[/IMG] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Indo-Iranian_origins.png Andronovo and the proposed birth place of Indo European is not in Europe it borders on the far East of Europe. Calling this "Europe" is a stretch to say the least. That is like calling Kazakhstan European.[/qb][/QUOTE]Correction. Andronovo is NOT the proposed birth place of Indo-European but of Indo-Iranian! The culture proposed to be the cradle of Indo-European is the earlier Yamnya Culture! [IMG]http://dnghu.org/indoeuropean-language-yamna-culture-map.jpg[/IMG] As you can see the Yamnya is located in Russia and split into directions west, east, and even a small group south into the Caucasus. [QUOTE][qb]Again, modern scholars from the far West of Europe are the ones stretching the definition of Europe to include the ancient Eurasian Steppes as some pan-European ethnic federation when it isn't. And this area is a long way from India as well. And a lot of scholars have questioned making Andronovo the homeland of the theoretical Indo-Aryan linquistic family and/or ethnic population as again, the Indus Valley civiliazation predates this and some of the earliest swastikas are found in Mohenjo Daro.[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes scholars in the past have attempted to include Central Asia as prehistoric Europe, but that is besides the point. Indo-Iranic is one branch in Asia while most branches are in Europe. The same way all subfamilies of Afrasian are located in Africa with just one subfamily (Semitic) being located in Southwest Asia. Language distribution in both instances make it clear where each phylum originates. IE in Europe and Afrasian in Africa. Mohenjo Daro as the earliest and indigenous culture in India is irrelevant to IE languages. [QUOTE][qb]My impression is that the Indus Valley civilization was contemporary with early Mesopotamia and Elam in Iran. These cultures shared a similar form of written language based on seals and pictographs and were also contemporary with Early ancient Egypt. Trade and contacts flourished between them all and I have no doubt that the flow of populations between India, Elam and Mesopotamia was well established. The later "indo-iranians" were simply a continuation of this older pattern except now you are talking of migrations from northern areas of the Iranian plateau as well. But these areas are not part of Europe. And the Iranian plateau is not in the same region as the Andronovo complex. So again, calling the people of Andronovo "Indo-Iranians" is a stretch as these populations do not have any physical cultural similarities to the populations of India, Iran and Mesopotamia other than the proposed homeland of the chariot being in the Andronovo complex and some cultural aspects like fire worship.[/qb][/QUOTE]You're right that Harappa, Elam, and Sumer were all contemporaneous but what does that have to do with the introduction of IE languages. Indo-Iranian languages by the way were first known in Mesopotamia in the form of the Kassites and later in Syria among the Mitanni before it was known in India. The Andronovo culture contains more than just horses and chariots which by the way were unknown to Harappa and it contemporaries but Soma plant, certain styles of pottery and styles of weaponry as well. Notice that right below the Andronovo are the later derived Yaz and Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complexes, and then after that the Swat culture in northeast Pakistan. This shows an obvious movement not of people but of culture. The earliest known center of Vedic culture by the way is located in Kashmir not long after the Swat culture. This supports the movement of Vedic culture from northeast to southwest as shown in the literature and not from from west to east as many Europeans once thought. [QUOTE][qb]A complete map of Eurasia and note the area of the supposed "Andronovo" complex and how far it is from Europe. Keep in mind that Russia, as a national entity is made up of the historic Russian homeland and a great many Asian provinces. Lumping them all together as European makes no sense. [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ce/Eurasian_continent.jpg[/IMG] http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Eurasian_continent.jpg [/qb][/QUOTE]Of course it does not. But again this is besides the point that Andronovo is derived from the earlier Yamnya which [i]is[/i] in Europe. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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