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Is Native American R Y-Chromosome of African Origin?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by astenb: [qb] [b]Clyde[/b] listen up because I am only going to do this once. What you have is a fundimental problem with knowledge. [QUOTE] It is obvious from the above that most Native American R lineages are not R-M269. And even you note that they are majority R-M173. This makes your entire argument bogus. [/QUOTE]Pay CLOSE attention so you can see where you are making your mistake. [b]ALL[/b] R1 carriers are "positive" R-M173 SNP. It doesn't matter if they carry ancestral R1*, R1b, R1a, R1a1, R1b1a, R1b1b, or "R1b1a2a1a1b4h" - The most common lineage in Irish. Being positive for R-M173 does NOT mean you have the lineage in its Ancestral state. 80% of Africans are Pn2 carriers. PN2* or E1b1* is NOT found in its ancestral state in 80% of Africans. [IMG]http://i204.photobucket.com/albums/bb178/beyoku/Egypt-Ydnastudy.jpg[/IMG] IN the above Example the M-60 SNP represents Haploroup B. NONE of these Lineages are B-M60* - IN their ancestral state. They are instead positive for B-M109 which takes us to B2a1a - I know this from OTHER STUDIES. "Pygmies" in Central Africa ALSO have high frequencies of positive B-M60 lineages. But they carry B2b noted by the M-112 SNP. Both groups are positive for M60, each group has DIFFERENT subclades. [b] NOW - IF AN ARTICLE DIDNT FULLY RESOLVE EGYPTIANS HAPLOGROUP B LINEAGES, BUT STATED "THE SAME HAPLOTYPE THAT IS FOUND IN EGYPTIANS IS THE SAME HAPLOTYPE IN PYGMIES - THEN I KNOW EGYPTIANS CARRY B2B.[/b] Also looking at that image ALL the Egyptian samples are positive for M89 SNP which represents Haplogroup F. THIS DOES NOT MEAN THEY ARE F*. We know that their M89 lineages are mostly Haplogroup J. Also from this article NOTICE the ancestral state of PN2* (E1b1*) and M96* (E*) - WHILE ALL of the M2 and M35 lineages are positive for Pn2 and M96 since they are upstream markers - NONE of the Egyptians carry E1b1* (Pn2*) and only ONE carries Ancestral E* Also notice they have High frequency of M35. VERY FEW of them are M35* Ancestral! Notice Kietas notes in the bottom "In Egypt M35 are also primarily M35/M78 and some M35/M81" - [b]Pay Attention Clyde, you will need this example for later[/b] - If we are told the most common haplotype in Egypt is the same as the Magreb that would mean E-M81. If you are told they are the same as those in Somalia that would mean E-M78. NOW moving on to your Haplogroup R nonsense. This image [IMG]http://olmec98.net/NativeM173.gif[/IMG] Shows you when it comes to "P-25*" or "R1b1*" - IN ITS ANCESTRAL STATE ([b]What Africans Carry[/b]) - It is very very low at only .03%. in Hammer et al 2004 - That there is your potential African linage. R-M269 On the other hand....the most common lineage in Western Europeans is at 21.9% Moving on to your Malhi et al reference where you have R-M173 at 73.0% - Mahli et al data comes from Bolnick et al - AND JUST AS IN THE INFORMATION BY KEITA THEY DID NOT RESOLVE THE LINEAGES FURTHER. But they do give you other informations (STR analysis) and refer to other publications that tells you about the haplotype : [QUOTE][b]The most common R-M173 haplotype in eastern North America is also the most common R-M173 haplotype in Europe,[/b][/QUOTE]What haplotype would that be? R-M269, What is that also found in African Americans? You should be smart enough to figure that out. How frequent is that found in Sub Saharan Africa - Rare as hell: They didnt tell you the "The most common R-M173 haplotype in eastern North America is also the most common R-M173 haplotype in Central Africa"......NO they said it was the European subclade of R-M173..........R-M269. [/qb][/QUOTE]I agree R-M269 is the most common haplogroup in Europe. But in relation to R-M173, the samples associated with Mahli et al were not resolved into R-M269. As a result, he never declared they were R-M269. Moreover, African R-M269 is the same as European R-M269. My point is: 1) R-M269 is also found among Africans of diverse backgrounds; 2) there is no evidence of extensive European and native American intermarriage; 3) In relation to those Native Americans who carry R-M269, there is abundant evidence of African male and Native American female mating. Conclusion, it is most likely that African males spread R-M173 among Native Americans--not Europeans. . [/QB][/QUOTE]
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