posted
Genetics, language, cattle pastoralism, etc. Really, its not hard to find.
"The peoples of Egypt, the Sudan, and much of East African Ethiopia and Somalia are now generally regarded as a Nilotic continuity, with widely ranging physical features (complexions light to dark, various hair and craniofacial types) but with powerful common cultural traits, including cattle pastoralist traditions." --Frank Yurco, "An Egyptological Review," 1996
lady of doom Member # 19427
posted
OH thank you, how about from a linguistic point of view?
lady of doom Member # 19427
posted
Actually it was hard to find I have been looking for proof for a day or so to prove that ancient Nubians were Nilotic.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Look be careful here,folks like to throw around the term "Nubian" as if doing so has no consequence,the area across Egypt's border contains many kinds of folks,back in pre Kemetian times the people of Qustol (Ta-Seti)were probably Afrasian speakers but their kingdom was the gold producing area as "Nub" meant gold in Kemet and was also the first nome or district of what would later to become Kemet.
See where the border of modern Egypt lays vs the more ancient with regards to the polities south of it including Ta-seti..sometime there after a Nilo Saharan speaking folk commonly called Kush came on the scene and dominate the area all the way to the kemetian border. so the question should have been posed in this manner WERE ANCIENT KUSHITES NILOTES?
lady of doom Member # 19427
posted
ok THAN were ancient Kushites Nilothic? the ones commonly portrayed by the ancient Egyptians as tall dark types.
Basically are they the same as modern day Nilotes DINKA NUER ETC..
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova Member # 15718
posted
The info is in the basic database compilation text on ES. Nilotic means part of the Nile Valley geographically and culturally. So of course they were Nilotic in that sense. As for language, Nubian language is classified as Nilo-Saharan but given close relationships with Nubia and Egypt, they shared common languages interchangeably within the Nile Valley. QUOTE:
-------------------------------------------------- Nubian languages ARTICLE from the Encyclopćdia Britannica
Nubian languages, group of languages spoken in The Sudan and southern Egypt, chiefly along the banks of the Nile River (where Nobiin and Kenzi [Kenuzi] are spoken) but also in enclaves in the Nuba Hills of central Sudan (Hill Nubian) and in Darfur (where Birked [Birgid] and Midob [Midobi] are spoken). These languages are now considered to be a part of the Nilo-Saharan language family.
Note that numerous "Niloites" speak Nilo-Saharan languages, and that Nilo-Saharan is found all the way into Southern Egypt. It never was "foreign" to Egypt.
Also Egypto/Nubians have had cultural links with the pastoral Nilolites of the valley. Egyptian/Nubian religion for example shows such a cultural relationship:
Ancient Egyptian religion closer to the religion of African regions than to Mesopotamia, Europe or the Middle East - again from the basic master text:
QUOTE(s): Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508 "A large number of gods go back to prehistoric times. The images of a cow and star goddess (Hathor), the falcon (Horus), and the human-shaped figures of the fertility god (Min) can be traced back to that period. Some rites, such as the "running of the Apil-bull," the "hoeing of the ground," and other fertility and hunting rites (e.g., the hippopotamus hunt) presumably date from early times.. Connections with the religions in southwest Asia cannot be traced with certainty."
"It is doubtful whether Osiris can be regarded as equal to Tammuz or Adonis, or whether Hathor is related to the "Great Mother." There are closer relations with northeast African religions. The numerous animal cults (especially bovine cults and panther gods) and details of ritual dresses (animal tails, masks, grass aprons, etc) probably are of African origin. The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)." (Encyclopedia Britannica 1984 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 6: "Egyptian Religion" , pg 506-508)
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Lady Of Doom
quote: ok THAN were ancient Kushites Nilothic? the ones commonly portrayed by the ancient Egyptians as tall dark types. Basically are they the same as modern day Nilotes DINKA NUER ETC..
Not quite as they incorporate all others including Afrasian speakers making a nation called Kush.
An address to the living by Sobeknakht: "Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html So they may have started as a Nilothic ethnic group but became a nation and by the 7TH century B.C they became an empire.
lady of doom Member # 19427
posted
quote:Originally posted by Brada-Anansi: Lady Of Doom
quote: ok THAN were ancient Kushites Nilothic? the ones commonly portrayed by the ancient Egyptians as tall dark types. Basically are they the same as modern day Nilotes DINKA NUER ETC..
Not quite as they incorporate all others including Afrasian speakers making a nation called Kush.
An address to the living by Sobeknakht: "Listen you, who are alive upon earth . . . Kush came . . . aroused along his length, he having stirred up the tribes of Wawat . . . the land of Punt and the Medjaw. http://wysinger.homestead.com/article10.html So they may have started as Nilotes ethnic group but became a nation and by the 7TH century B.C they became an empire.
Oh yea that was my question were the earlier Nubians Nilotes like Dinka Nuer and I guess the Nuba from the Nuba mountains.
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova Member # 15718
posted
I would agree that "Nubians" spoke Egyptian language as well being that the 2 peoples are so closely related. I only mention Nilo-Saharan to show links with other Niloites along the river. Yeap- I agree also that a large empire came into being as well further south in the Valley. In fact, one of the greatest Dynasties in ancient Egypt, the 12th had Nubian pharoahs, according to conservative Egyptologist Frank Yurco hisself. Info I know you already know Brada, but that's why I put it in the big Master Text, so queries like these have a resource starting point for answers.
Quote: "the XIIth Dynasty (1991-1786 B.C.E.) originated from the Aswan region. As expected, strong Nubian features and dark coloring are seen in their sculpture and relief work. This dynasty ranks as among the greatest, whose fame far outlived its actual tenure on the throne. Especially interesting, it was a member of this dynasty- that decreed that no Nehsy (riverine Nubian of the principality of Kush), except such as came for trade or diplomatic reasons, should pass by the Egyptian fortress at the southern end of the Second Nile Cataract. Why would this royal family of Nubian ancestry ban other Nubians from coming into Egyptian territory? Because the Egyptian rulers of Nubian ancestry had become Egyptians culturally; as pharaohs, they exhibited typical Egyptian attitudes and adopted typical Egyptian policies."
- (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
"Among the foreigners, the Nubians were closest ethnically to the Egyptians. In the late predynastic period (c. 3700-3150 B.C.E.), the Nubians shared the same culture as the Egyptians and even evolved the same pharaonic political structure." - (F. J. Yurco, 'Were the ancient Egyptians black or white?', Biblical Archaeology Review (Vol 15, no. 5, 1989)
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Lady Of Doom see Zarahan's post above
quote:Nubian languages ARTICLE from the Encyclopćdia Britannica
Nubian languages, group of languages spoken in The Sudan and southern Egypt, chiefly along the banks of the Nile River (where Nobiin and Kenzi [Kenuzi] are spoken) but also in enclaves in the Nuba Hills of central Sudan (Hill Nubian) and in Darfur (where Birked [Birgid] and Midob [Midobi] are spoken). These languages are now considered to be a part of the Nilo-Saharan language family.
And
quote:The kinship in particular shows some African elements, such as the king as the head ritualist (i.e., medicine man), the limitations and renewal of the reign (jubilees, regicide), and the position of the king's mother (a matriarchal element). Some of them can be found among the Ethiopians in Napata and Meroe, others among the Prenilotic tribes (Shilluk)."
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted
Btw a lil O.T but these nomadic herdsmen did build pyramids an example of a Nuer Pyramid or mound I think Djehuti bought this to our attention some yrs ago'
Although not positively identified by Seligman, this seems almost certainly to be a view of the mound built by the Nuer prophet Ngundeng (d.1906) at the end of the nineteenth century, and added to by his son Gwek (d.1928), who also became a prophet. He describes it in his list as a grave pyramid, possibly since he was informed that Ngundeng was buried within his hut at the base of the mound. At one time the mound, known as Deng Kur and associated with the Dinka-originating cult of the spirit Deng, was furnished by elephant tusks around its 300-foot circumference, standing over 50 feet high. Made from the baked earth, ashes and dung of old cattle camp floor layers, it became an important political symbol of Nuer resistence to colonial rule, and was eventually bombed by the administration in 1928. The Seligmans seem not to have visited Nuer country (the heavy bagagge in the foreground is also incongruous with their light trekking), and so this is almost certainly a copy of a print, possibly by E.S. Crispin, who visited and photographed the pyramid as part of the Sudd cutting expedition along the White Nile during 1901-1902. http://southernsudan.prm.ox.ac.uk/details/1967.26.187/
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted
quote:Originally posted by lady of doom: WERE ANCIENT NUBIANS NILOTES?
That depends on what you mean by "Nilote" and which ancient Nubians you are referring to. By 'Nilote' do you mean linguistically Nilo-Saharan speaking? Because other than that, the term 'Nilote' is technically used to denote a dweller of the Nile River which would include the Egyptians. If you do mean Nilo-Saharan speaking, then there were many Nilo-Saharan speaking Nubians though some spoke Afrasian languages related to Egyptian or Beja languages.
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
posted
quote:Originally posted by lady of doom: ok THAN were ancient Kushites Nilothic? the ones commonly portrayed by the ancient Egyptians as tall dark types.
Basically are they the same as modern day Nilotes DINKA NUER ETC..
The Kushites were not Nilotes. They did not speak Nubian. The Nubians were enemies of the Kushites.
The Noba/Nubians were enemies of the Kushites of Meroe. Above is a bound Nubian captive. This artifact was discovered at Meroe in 1911. On the chest of the figure are the following inscriptions: Qo-ne Qore nob o lo. This reads: " The honorable Nubian King arrive(d) as a captive". Another small bronze Noba figure was inscribed with the words : E de qe Nob. This inscription reads: "Act indeed to register the Noba (prisoner)".
.
KING Member # 9422
posted
Nubia, Nubians is an tough thing to get around because there is MANY groups in Ancient Egypt and Sudan socalled nubian.
Ta-Seti was the first nome of Egypt and socalled Nubia.
Then there were Kerma, Yam, Wawat, Merowe etc. Then people like the medjay who spoke Afro Asiatic languages, but were called Nubians since they grouped all people south of Egypt as Nubian.
Here is some info from a book that talks about Nubians and Egyptians being the same :
Dr. Michael A. Hoffman. In reference to the ancient peoples, region and border of Nubia he goes on to explain that the ancient population of Nubia, (from Aswan southward) differs not from the ancient population of Upper Egypt. Hoffman writes:
"From predynastic times down to the New Kingdom when Egypt actually occupied the land, Lower Nubia remained a region of few social and economic distinctions and comparatively low population density. The reason for her tendency to lag behind her rich northern neighbor has sometimes been explained in terms of racial inferiority. But in physical affinity the peoples of this region cannot be differentiated consistently from those of southern Upper Egypt. An environmental explanation is more accurate." (pg.256)
Obviously Southern Upper Egyptians are and were not very distinct from Lower Nubian populations.
That is why I stated earlier in the previous post, that yes, had we good depictions of the First-Second Dynasty rulers, who originated from Nekhen, way south in Upper Egypt, they should be dark brown in complexion as the people in those areas were in all subsequent periods down to the present day.
So again, if there were such individuals in the north, they well might be descendants of these royals from Nekhen. Such may be the case with Djoser, the first king of whom we have portrait quality statues and reliefs, and yes, known to be a son of Khasekhemwy, the last ruler of Dynasty 2, he does appear like a southern Egyptian in type.
Most sincerely,
Frank J. Yurco University of Chicago
We also have the Prophecy of Neferti that states that an King will come from Ta seti. So no matter the language of the Nubians, they were closely linked with Eyptians and Nilo Saharan and Afro Asiatic overlap in Africa.
Peace
kikuyu22 Member # 19561
posted
IMO,the Nilotes were among the African population in AE and Nubia which existed contemporaneously with Bantus and modern day Cushites. For example in Kenya both semi bantu Kikuyus and Nilotic Kalenjin share Egyptian roots.
kenndo Member # 4846
posted
Nilotic people or Nilotes, in its contemporary usage, refers to some ethnic groups mainly in South Sudan, Uganda, Kenya, and northern Tanzania, who speak Nilotic languages, a large sub-group of the Nilo-Saharan languages. These include the Kalenjin, Luo, Ateker, Dinka, Nuer, Shilluk and the Maa-speaking peoples – all which are clusters of several ethnic groups.
Nilotic languages
The Nilotic languages are a group of Eastern Sudanic languages spoken across a wide area between southern Sudan and Tanzania by the Nilotic peoples, particularly associated with cattle-herding. They are divided into three subgroups: # Eastern Nilotic languages such as Turkana and Maasai # Southern Nilotic languages such as Kalenjin and Datooga # Western Nilotic languages such as Dinka and Luo Before Greenberg's reclassification, the term was used to refer to Western Nilotic alone, with the other two being grouped as related "Nilo-Hamitic languages". Nilotic languages are also spoken in Uganda
Nilotic languages
In early twentieth century classification of African languages, Sudanic languages was a generic term for African languages spoken in the Sahel belt from Ethiopia in the east to Senegal in the west.
Eastern Sudanic languages The Eastern Sudanic languages are a large family of languages which constitute a branch of the Nilo-Saharan language family. Eastern Sudanic languages are spoken from southern Egypt to northern Tanzania. Nubian (and possibly Meroitic) gives Eastern Sudanic some of the earliest written attestations of African languages. However, the largest branch by far is Nilotic, spread by extensive and comparatively recent conquests throughout East Africa. Before the spread of Nilotic, Eastern Sudanic was centered in present-day Sudan. The name "East Sudanic" refers to the eastern part of the region of Sudan where the country of Sudan is located, and contrasts with Central Sudanic and West Sudanic (modern Mande, in the Niger–Congo family).
kenndo Member # 4846
posted
kush quote- The native name of the Kingdom was likely kaš, recorded in Egyptian as kꜢš. The name Kash is probably connected to Cush in the Hebrew Bible (Hebrew: כוש), son of Ham (Genesis 10:6). The conventional name "kingdom of Kush" was introduced in 19th-century Egyptology.
You could say this ,even if the noba and kushites were completely different ethnic groups(not really)in the end they still became one and they still had the same basic civilization so in that sense they were basically the same group overall.
I spoke to a nile valley expert a few years ago.The noba and kushites were really sub-groups/tribes or sub-ethnic group that really belong to a larger ethnic group who's original name is really unknown. The fighting back and forth the kushites had with the noba was really tribal not ethnic. They are really one people that shared the same culture/civilization.
The only difference was the language,everything was mostly the same.so it really was no different when mande sub-groups like the mandinka or bambara went to war with each other. Greeks like the athenians or spartans when to war all the time with each,that does not mean they were different really overall from each other.
kenndo Member # 4846
posted
Good post king
Let me add.
I spoke to timothy kendall years ago a few times.
Timothy Kendall, a fellow at Harvard University's W.E.B. Du Bois Institute and an expert in Nubian Studies.
Timothy kendall quote-
Although the Noba and the Kushites were separate language and culture groups, they had probably co-existed in the region for centuries, and physically they were indistinguishable. When the power of Meroe declined, the two groups surely intermingled, if they had not done so earlier; the Noba may have assumed dominance, but they retained close ties to their Meroitic roots. One way of being certain of this is from the fact that many Nubians, even now, still wear the same facial scars that can be seen on the images of the Kushite rulers on their monuments at Meroe and other sites. These marks are handed down through families from one generation to the next and identify one's tribal affiliation. Obviously they have passed down to the present from remote antiquity, transcending dynastic, tribal, cultural, religious, and linguistic change.
Edited- You could say this ,even if the noba and kushites were completely different ethnic groups(not really)in the end they still became one and they still had the same basic civilization so in that sense they were basically the same group overall.
I spoke to a nile valley expert a few years ago.The noba and kushites were really sub-groups/tribes or sub-ethnic groups that really belong overall to the same ethnic group who's original name is really unknown.of course later we would call them nubians since we do not know their original ethnic name.
We know only the name of the sub-groups of these nubians,like kushite or noba,so since we do not know the original ethnic name for both of the sub-groups we call them ethnically nubians now,even if they did not called themselves that in the past. Even kushite was not the original name of this sub-group but they took name for themselves as well. The greeks never called themselves greeks,they called themselves Hellenes but i guess the name greek got stuck with them later just like with the macedonians.
The fighting back and forth the kushites had with the noba was really tribal not ethnic.They were closely related.
They are really one people that shared the same culture/civilization.
The only difference was the language,everything else was the same.so it really was no different when mande sub-groups like the mandinka or bambara went to war with each other.
Greeks like the athenians or spartans when to war all the time with each other,that does not mean they were different really overall from each other.
The noba and kushites were nile valley nubians,the Medjay are called the desert nubians,now the medjay were a completely different ethnic group.
vwwvv Member # 18359
posted
KING Member # 9422
posted
kenndo
Good job showing that the Noba and Kushites were one people Kenndo.
All I can say is that we know the British and French were at war, but no one says they were different "races". The Germans and Russian same thing.
The socalled Nubians, like the Egyptians are ONE PEOPLE. They spoke different languages, but there ethnicites are linked in culture, dress etc.
There were Nubians closer to Egyptians, and some less close...BUT..all BROTHERS.
Nubians like the merowe, Kush, Yam etc did not call themselves Nubian or even Kush like you said Kenndo. What can be gathered is that the Noba were closely linked to Egypt and Kush because we see them wrestling (The Noba) in pics on the walls of Egypt and that has not changed at all.
I Truly believe that we will find more links these Africans had in the coming year thanks to instituitons like the Fitz Museum.
Kenndo please read this website and tell me what you think of them:
It's an British website showing that even though racists like cassi etc talk there stupidness, More and More people are accepting the truth of Egypt as an African Centered Civilization. With progress like this we can see people turn over an new leaf and TRUTH stand the test of time.