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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [qb] As a result, the color Black and Black individuals were recognized as important in Mayan culture. The major Black gods were God C, Xaman and Ekchuah. God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. It has the phonetic value of [b]ku or ch’in [/b] deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin: [list] [*]Maya ……..English………Mande Kin………….day…………..kene K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku [/list] This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization. . [/qb][/QUOTE]This is boring. Clyde's misuse of linguistics with respect to the Mayan languages has been refuted since 1998. However, a lot of newcomers may be intimidated by Clyde's supposed mastery of Mande. From a previous posting on ES In all his work Winters makes much of supposed linguistic correspondences between the languages of peoples supposedly influenced or genetically related to the Mande. However, there is a tremendous fundamental flaw in his work that makes these comparisons invalid; Winters does not provide accurate phonetic transcriptions of the words he compares making the supposed ”resemblance” invalid. Even Wikipedia is a good enough source for this [URL] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparative_method[/URL] quote: [QUOTE]The comparative method (in comparative linguistics) is a technique used by linguists to demonstrate genetic relationships between languages. It aims to prove that two or more historically attested languages are descended from a single proto-language by comparing lists of cognate terms. From these cognate lists, regular sound correspondences between the languages are established, and a sequence of regular sound changes can then be postulated which allows the proto-language to be reconstructed from its daughter languages. Relation is deemed certain only if a partial reconstruction of the common ancestor is feasible, and if regular sound correspondences can be established with chance similarities ruled out.[/QUOTE]When Winters transcribes his Mande words from Delafosse, he doesn’t distinguish between vowels that are nasal and those that aren’t; between ê as in French tête and è as in père for example and similar variations in the other vowels; u that really sounds as [ou] as in “sou”, û that sounds as [oû] as in croûte; or the ü that sounds like [u] in “surdite”; in consonants: g(dot), n (dot), r(dot), and x (dot) sound like [gh], [ng] as in English “sing”, [rh], [kh] as in Spanish “jota: respectively; gy is [gui[, etc. All of these examples from Delafosse (1929, pp.29-35) Another problem is that Delafosse in his dictionary does not record differences in tone. This is why we often see a number of different definitions for the exact same word, as we will see for ku later. Here is a quote explaining this Ward, I. C. 1944. “ A Phonetic Introduction to Mende,” in K.H. Crosby [b]An Introduction to the Study of Mende[/b] Cambridge: W. Heffer & Sons [QUOTE]p.5 “THE TONES OF MENDE, (xi) Mende is a tone language, i.e. the pitch of a word is as much a part that word as any other element. It is almost impossible to over-emphasize the importance of tones in Mende. In fact, it is no exaggeration to say that of the three factors of speech, tone, vowel and consonant, tone is the most important and consonant the least important (see Practical Suggestions for the Learning of an African Language in the Field, Ida C. Ward, p.21). Tone can distinguish words from each other. E.g. [i]kali[rising tone] = “snake”; kali[falling tone] = “hoe”; ndapi[rising] = fight; ndapi[hightone] = “swim”. . . (xii) In addition to distinguishing meaning, tone plays a part in the construction of sentences, i.e. every verb form has its own particular tone pattern; closely related groups of words such as noun+noun, noun+adjective, noun+ postposition, have their tone pattern… . .”[/QUOTE]In Maya, as I’ve written before Winters never takes into account the sound value of the glottal stop, a consonant, a crucial component of the language just as it is in Arabic. Another problem, as we will see, is that Winters cherry picks his words so that, instead of comparing words that have identical meanings, he uses words that often require a stretch of the imagination to achieve similarity. Participants in ES should be concerned about this since it applies to claims about Dravidian, Japanese, Mixe, and other “languages related to Mande” not just Maya. It takes work but it would be worthwhile to carry out an exercise like this for other languages. For reference in Delafosse /â/ like Fr. “pâte”, /ê/ = “tête”, /î/ “pître”, /ô/ = côte’, /û/ = croûte”,/ü/= “surdite”,/u/= “sou” 1) I dealt with k’in/kene previously, but here it is again; The Maya name k’in phonetically is k/glottal stop/in. As those of you who speak Arabic know glottal stops (hamza) are very important consonants. Mande does NOT have glottal stops, but Winters never puts glottal stops in his comparisons of Maya and Mande and his comparisons therefore are invalid. [kene] does not sound like [k[glottal stop]in] More importantly, why do you not choose the true equivalent words to compare instead of fudging the scales to try to force a match? k’in (Cordemex, p. 400) is defined as “day” generally, “sun”. The really equivalent word is: tele defined as “day (in general), sun, day (opposed to night)” (Delafosse 1955, p. 737). tele does not sound like k’in The word Winters chooses: kenè, kêna is defined as “light, daylight, luminous space, open space” (Delafosse, 1955, p. 358) which is a stretch to get to the meaning “day”. 2) god ku/ ku a) Maya k’/glottal stop/u (Cordemex p. 406) and k’/glottal stop/uul (Cordemex p. 421) means “god” “divine” and “soul” b) Mande If you look up the word “dieu” in Delafosse (1929) p. 431 you get: Alla which is the borrowed “Allah”. However, (p. 434) “divinité” is n’[e]-ya – locale, l/â/-siri, d/â/-siri This in no way sounds like k[glottal stop]in Winters proposes, with no page reference, ku= “god” Delafosse (1955 pp 415-420) has a number of definitions – none of them “god” 1 k/uo/ = “washing, to wash, to bathe” 2. k/uo/ = “yam Dioscorea alata” 3. k/uo/ = “tail, to stand in line, “ 4. k/uo/ = “evil, bad, poor” Four identically sounding words— they must be different tones 5. k/oun nasal vowel/] = “head, summit” 6. k/on nasal vowel/] = “that which should be isolated, to be sacred, adult, respect, etc.” p. 381 kuo, koun, kon do not sound like k/glottal stop/u, or k/glottal stop/uul or have the meaning of “god”. Neya does not sound like k/glottal stop/u either. Delafosse, M. 1929. [b]La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes[/b] Paris: Paul Geuthner Delafosse, M. 1955. [b]La langue Mandingue et ses dialectes[/b] vol. 2 Paris: Paul Geuthner Barrera Vasquez, A. Ed. 1980 [b]Diccionario Maya Cordemex[/b] Merida: Ediciones Cordemex [/QUOTE]LOL. You don't know anything about comparative linguistics. You look for analogous consonants to determine a relationship. For example lets look at the word feeble 'weak': [b](Latin) flabilis > (Fr.)faible > (Eng) Feeble[/b]=weak. If you notice these words have different vowels, but they share a similar phonological pattern: [b] f-b-l[/b]. The words from these diverse languages shows regular sound correspondences. Thus we can say they are related. You only concentrate on vowels when reconstructing a proto-language. You would know this if you were a linguist. [b]Due to the regular correspondence between Mayan[b] K’u ,qu [/i][/b] and Mande[b][i] Ku[/b][/i] I wrote God C is personification of the concept of sacreness. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/BlackGods2.gif[/IMG] [b]God C[/b] It has the phonetic value of [b]ku or ch’in [/b] deity or sacreness. The Mayan term for deity/god is of Mande Olmec origin: [list] [*]Maya ……..English………Mande Kin………….day…………..kene K’u,ku……..sacre,god………Ku [/list] This is another indication of the Olmec origin of Mayan civilization. Also, please cite the 1998 article where my comparisons of Mayan and Mande terms was refuted. . [/qb][/QUOTE]LOL yourself. 1) please [b]quote[/b] a linguistics textbook that says that only consonants are important in determining genetic relationships-- you make things up all the time. 2) Even by your standard your methodology is erroneous since you completely ignore the key role that glottal stops [b]CONSONANTS[/b] play in Mayan languages and the fact that Mande does not have the [b]CONSONANT[/b] glottal stop. Thus no sound correspondence is possible. 3) sound correspondences are not the only thing that is involved in these determinations, there also has to be a corresponding [b]MEANING[/b] as in your "feeble example. None of the many meanings of KU is "god" just more spam [/QB][/QUOTE]
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