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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lyinass,: [qb] [IMG]http://www.morocco-holidays-guide.co.uk/rabat/img/archaeological-museum-rabat.jpeg[/IMG] [URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-24-15.html] [IMG]http://www.ephotobay.com/image/picture-24-15.png[/IMG][/URL][URL=http://www.ephotobay.com/share/picture-23-13.html] [IMG]http://www.ephotobay.com/image/picture-23-13.png[/IMG][/URL] ^^^ this is all the same bronze statue of Juba II, differesnt angles[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes and absolutely no information on 'color' can be gleaned from this statue let alone whether the person portrayed was or wasn't black. [QUOTE]Juba II was the last king of Numidia (52/50 BC – AD 23) He later moved to Mauretania as king. His first wife was Cleopatra Selene II, daughter to Greek Ptolemaic Queen Cleopatra VII of Egypt and Roman triumvir Mark Antony. Juba II was a prince from North Africa. He was the only child and heir to King Juba I of Numidia and his mother is unknown. In 46 BC, his father committed suicide as he was defeated by Julius Caesar (in Thapsus, North Africa). Numidia became a Roman Province. His father was an ally to the Roman General Pompey. Juba II was brought to Rome by Julius Caesar and took part in Caesar’s triumphal procession. In Rome, he learned Latin and Greek, became romanized and was granted Roman citizenship. Through dedication to his studies, he is said to have become one of Rome's best educated citizens, and by age 20 he wrote one of his first works entitled Roman Archaeology. He was raised by Julius Caesar and later by his great-nephew Octavian (future Emperor Caesar Augustus). While growing up, Juba II accompanied Octavian on military campaigns, gaining valuable experience as a leader. Augustus restored Juba II as the king of Numidia between 29 BC – 27 BC. Juba II established Numidia as an ally of Rome. Juba II would become one of the most loyal client kings that served Rome. When they moved to Mauretania, they renamed their new capital to Caesaria (modern Cherchell, Algeria). The city was named in honor of Augustus. The construction and sculpture projects at Caesaria and another city Volubilis, display a rich mixture of Egyptian, Greek and Roman architectural styles. Cleopatra is said to have exerted considerable influence on Juba II's policies. Juba II encouraged and supported the performing arts, research of the sciences and research of natural history. [b]Juba II also supported Mauretanian trade. The Kingdom of Mauretania was of great importance to the Roman Empire. Mauretania traded all over the Mediterranean, particularly with Spain and Italy. Mauretania exported fish, grapes, pearls, figs, grain, wooden furniture and purple dye harvested from certain shellfish, which was used in the manufacture of purple stripes for senatorial robes. Juba II sent a contingent to Iles Purpuraires to re-establish the ancient Phoenician dye manufacturing process [/b][/QUOTE]And your point exactly?? [QUOTE]here we have a king of ancient Mauretania Juba II The English word "Moor" derives from "Maure" or "Mauri". related to this region - Maure-tania Some think it relates to the "black" skin color of it's people others think it's related to this region but relates to some other aspect of it. Mike thinks it might mean "wasteland". Mike's reasoning is that according to him everybody in the region at that time was black therefore one of these nations calling themsleves a word meaning black wouldn't make sense if everyone was black. It would be a given. A similar argument could be made that Kmt, the original word for Egypt does not refer to skin color, it must refer to something else. You be the judge. here is how an etymology describes it: [i] [b] Moor (n.) [/b] "North African, Berber," late 14c., from Old French More, from Medieval Latin Morus, from Latin Maurus "inhabitant of Mauritania" (northwest Africa, a region now corresponding to northern Algeria and Morocco), from Greek Mauros, perhaps a native name, or else cognate with mauros "black" (but this adjective only appears in late Greek and may as well be from the people's name as the reverse). Being a dark people in relation to Europeans, their name in the Middle Ages was a synonym for "Negro;" later (16c.-17c.) used indiscriminately of Muslims (Persians, Arabs, etc.) but especially those in India. [/i] [/QUOTE]Correct. Whether the word 'Moor' or some variant was a native term in Africa or not, the point is that Euros used to to mean BLACK. and Numidians WERE indeed 'Moors' or blacks to the sun-tanned Italians. [QUOTE][qb]Over 700 years later Muslims were to invade Iberia from much of this this same ancient Mauretania/Numidia region. There are coins depicting Juba II. The statue above is shown photographed from three differnt angles. It is believed by ES member Just-call-him-Jari to depict an indigenous black African with indigenous black African wavy hair. I'll let you be the judge.[/qb][/QUOTE]Jari is not the only knowledgeable person. Everyone in this forum except you knows by now that there are indeed Africans with wavy hair and narrow noses who have no mixed or foreign ancestry what so ever. [QUOTE]Juba II died in 23 AD Were the Mauretanians of 23 AD the same people as the Mauretanians over 400 years earlier? It's hard to to tell [i] Herodotus: The Histories, c. 430 B.C., Book IV. Accounts of Ancient Mauretania, c. 430 BCE- 550 CE These be the Libyan tribes whereof I am able to give the names; and most of these cared little then, and indeed care little now, for the king of the Medes. One thing more also I can add concerning this region, namely, that, so far as our knowledge reaches, four nations, and no more, inhabit it; and two of these nations are indigenous, while two are not. The two indigenous are the Libyans and Ethiopians, who dwell respectively in the north and the south of Libya. The Phoenicians and the Greek are in-comers ____________________________________ Strabo: Geography, c.[b] 22 A.D., [/b] XVII.iii.1-11. Here dwell a people called by the Greeks Maurusii, and by the Romans and the natives Mauretanii, a populous and flourishing African nation, situated opposite to Spain, on the other side of the strait, at the Pillars of Hercules, which we have frequently mentioned before...... The mountain which extends through the middle of Mauretania, from the Coteis to the Syrtes, is itself inhabited, as well as others running parallel to it, first by the Mauretanii, but deep in the interior of the country by the largest of the African tribes, called Gaetuli..... Writers in general are agreed that Mauretania is a fertile country, except a small part which is desert, and is supplied with water by rivers and lakes. It has forests of trees of vast size, and the soil produces everything..... The country is the fruitful nurse of large serpents, elephants, antelopes, buffaloes, and similar animals; of lions also and panthers. It produces weasels (jerboas?) equal in size and similar to cats, except that their noses are more prominent, and multitudes of apes, of which Poseidonius relates that when he was sailing from Gades to Italy, and approached the coast of Africa, he saw a forest low upon the sea-shore full of these animals, some on the trees, others on the ground, and some giving suck to their young. He was amused also with seeing some with large dugs, some bald, others with ruptures and exhibiting to view various effects of disease..... Above Mauretania, on the exterior sea (the Atlantic), is the country of the western Ethiopians, as they are called, which for the most part is badly inhabited..... Although the Mauretanii inhabit a country, the greatest part of which is very fertile, yet the people in general continue even to this time to live like nomads. They bestow care to improve their looks by plaiting their hair, trimming their beards, by wearing golden ornaments, cleaning their teeth, and paring their nails; and you would rarely see them touch one another as they walk, lest they should disturb the arrangement of their hair. [b]Some say that the Mauretanii are Indians, who accompanied Hercules hither.[/b] A little before my time, the kings Bogus and Bocchus, allies of the Romans, possessed this country; after their death, Juba succeeded to the kingdom, having received it from Augustus Caesar, in addition to his paternal dominions. He was the son of Juba who fought, in conjunction with Scipio, against divine Caesar. Juba died lately, and was succeeded by his son Ptolemy, whose mother was the daughter of Antony and Cleopatra.[/i][/QUOTE]The reason for the comparison with Indians was because of their wavy hair. [QUOTE] Procopius of Caesarea: History of the Wars, c. [b]550 CE[/b] Books III.xxv.3-9; IV.vi.10-14, vii.3, xi.16-20, xiii.26-29 And there are fortresses also on the mountain [called "Clypea" by the Romans], which are neglected, by reason of the fact that they do not seem necessary to the inhabitants. For since the time when the Mauretanii wrested Aurasium from the Vandals, not a single enemy had until now ever come there or so much as caused the barbarians to be afraid that they would come, but even the populous city of Tamougadis [Timgad], situated against the mountain on the east at the beginning of the plain, was emptied of its population by the Mauretanii and razed to the ground, in order that the enemy should not only not be able to camp there, but should not even have the city as an excuse for coming near the mountains. And the Mauretanii of that place held also the land to the west of Aurasium, a tract both extensive and fertile. And beyond these dwelt other nations of the Mauretanii, who were ruled by Ortaïas, who had come, as was stated above, as an ally of Solomon and the Romans. [b]And I have heard this man say that beyond the country which he ruled there was no habitation of men, but desert land extending to a great distance, and that beyond that there are men, not black-skinned like the Mauretanii, but very white in body and fair-haired.[/b] [/i][/QB][/QUOTE]Okay, but the Mauretanii like their Numidian kin are black. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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