We all know Africans played a part in the Indian Ocean trade. But how much? Could their role have been bigger than suspected? Could they have had more control over the Indian Ocean trade. We know the Indian Ocean connected Africa to the rest of the world. The Indian Ocean trade was so big and important that the Europeans desperately wanted in and tried to find a shortcut to India. Jari and TypeZeis speculate that their could have been this huge East African empire. I speculate that Africans could have possible had a foot in the Indian Ocean. First the advanced Swahili states, then Africans in India and then African kings in Yemen.
Not only that but according to archaeologist Felix Chami, Africans were a part of the Indian Ocean trade since Ancient times and before the arrival of Arabs and Islam. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/1924318.stm
Also Africans like the Axumites and people from the Land of Punt were already a part of the trade.
I've been speaking to some Somalis around the net. And they said Somalis basically had a bigger influence than most in and were really dominate the Indian Ocean trade. PreColonialAfricaFTW from Historum is a really cool guy from Historum and he's Somali himself. Heres what he had to say about Somalis in the Indian Ocean trade.
quote:1.Extremely dominant, Somalis were the leaders of Africans in the commerce between Africa and Asia, they even established colonies in Aden in Yemen, Sofala in Mozambique, and settled as far away as the Maldives. They did liberate Swahili port cities that the Portuguese sacked in the 16th century and Swahili sailors freely traded in Somalia. I'd imagine they had an amicable relationship as well as a shared history.
2.Since ancient times, India was one of their biggest customers, in the medieval era, trade expanded from cinnamon to include fabrics and spices. The portuguese noted many ships from India routinely sailed to Somalia laden with cargo.
The biggest ships were probably made by the Chinese, but the Ajuuraan-Portuguese wars report that Portuguese sailors going to Mogadishu noted large battleships defending the city. Big enough to rival their own, I'd imagine.
4. It was the dominant port city on the east African coast, enclosed by defensive walls, with buildings that are four and five stories high. It was a cosmopolitan, energetic city filled with bustling trade centers, large palaces, and many mosques. Ross E.Dunn describes it and Somalia as a "medieval America". It was also a hydraulic city thanks to the Ajuuraan sultanate. Vasco De Gama, Ibn Battuta, and Zheng He(he visited it twice) all visited the city. If you were sailing across the Indian ocean with a ship full of cargo, Mogadishu was the place to be.
What caught my attention really is that he said Somalis established colonies in Aden in Yemen, Sofala in Mozambique, and settled as far away as the Maldives. I don't know if thats true and I'll have to ask him about some good information for that. But it certainly caught my attention. Also Somalis are a seafaring people and still are. Somalis also did have(and still do) one of the largest coast in Africa.
So now...
1. We have Africans in Eastern Swahili coast Africa trading since Ancient times. With even the Romans and Greeks.
2. People of Land of Punt in the Indian trade.
3. Advanced Swahili civilization and dominate rule in the trade.
4. Somalis being dominate and some saying they had colonies in different places.
5. African elites in India. Also TypeZeis says you do not call a slave siddi(lord) which I agree.
6. African kings in Yemen.
Also another thing that caught my attention in Jari's thread is that he said this so called great African empire may have ticked Europeans off and which is why they are so angry at anyone of African descent. Correct me if I worded you wrong Jari. Also Jari you also said African sultans controlled Oman. Is that true, because that is interesting and never heard of it.
I just want to make one thing clear. This is not a pseudo historic thread. All I'm doing is just speculating, because this topic really caught my interest. The Indian Ocean trade was so big that Europeans even wanted a part in it. Could Africans have had complete control over this trade, were they a powerhouse? And was there this great and power Eastern African empire that is now gone?
mena7 Member # 20555
posted
According to the Bantu Hebrew the Somali people are descendant of the Canaanite people of the city of Sidon and Tyre. The Canaanite people were great sea traders in ancient and classical time. The Somali who are descendant of the Canaanite were great Indian Ocean sea traders called Swahili.
Other descendant of the Canaanite are the Afar, the Tutsi, Luo, Massai, Oromo.
European colonialist turned all black people outside Africa into mythical slave. How can the African in India be slave when they are call Siddi meaning lord. The Siddi are probably descendant of the African Nagga.
Sundjata Member # 13096
posted
Will try to post more later but Ibn Battuta referred to East Africans as the "guarantors of safety on [the] sea" (the Indian Ocean). They patrolled their waters with armed militia (again, according to Ibn Battuta) to secure their investments in the trade and were very effective in fending off pirates and undesirables.
That said, it appears to be the case that they definitely controlled the trade on their side of things/coasts.
quote:Originally Posted by Son of Ra: And was there this great and power Eastern African empire that is now gone?
Aksum would fit that criteria.
Son of Ra Member # 20401
posted
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Will try to post more later but Ibn Battuta referred to East Africans as the "guarantors of safety on [the] sea" (the Indian Ocean). They patrolled their waters with armed militia (again, according to Ibn Battuta) to secure their investments in the trade and were very effective in fending off pirates and undesirables.
That said, it appears to be the case that they definitely controlled the trade on their side of things/coasts.
quote:Originally Posted by Son of Ra: And was there this great and power Eastern African empire that is now gone?
Aksum would fit that criteria.
Wouldn't be surprised. Again it seemed like Africans had a foot in the Indian Ocean trade.
Tukuler Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: you do not call a slave siddi(lord) which I agree.
Y not if that slave either owns you or is yr boss
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
posted Imitation in Aksumite Coinage and Indian Imitations of Aksumite Coins Rebecca Day
University of Birmingham, College of Arts and Law rrd883@bham.ac.uk Introduction
The sudden appearance and disappearance of Aksumite coins in the Indian Ocean region in the late third century remains an enigmatic clue to a dynamic phase of international trade and diplomacy. This study will explore how the Aksumite kingdom of Ethiopia used imitation of Byzantine coins as part of its strategy to usurp the role of the eastern Roman Empire in long-distance trade with the East. These coins demonstrate a flourishing and self-confident polity, but also illustrate the importance of cultural tradition in the pursuit of maritime trade.1 Discussing these themes further, the use and production of Indian imitations of Aksumite coins as part of a cultural tradition of imitation, which incorporated Byzantine, Roman and Kushan material will be explored.2 Such an examination of genuine and original coins in the context of the mysterious phenomenon of Aksumite trade clearly highlights the fluidity of notions of continuity, distinction and differentiation, which gave the maritime trading network of the Indian Ocean its unique and ambiguous historical character.
To answer the question, Africans must have had enough control over the Indian Ocean trade for them to export products like gold, ebony, ivory, and even exotic animals like giraffes as far as China.
And yeah Africans had more control of their goods back then, even having a complete monopoly in trade. What happened?
-Just Call Me Jari- Member # 14451
posted
I really wish you could have came to Egyptsearch earlier, we had a thread called, Black Asians not unless they are Negro" which was started by Altaruri and we did provide infomation on the Zanj, Swahili Africans popularized by Al Jahiz. Altakruri provided evidence of Zanj in South East Asia by other Muslim writers which confirmed Al Jahiz.(I wish I had saved it)
basically Al-Jahiz says that blacks can be found..
quote:"the blacks include the Zanj, Ethiopians, the people of Fazzan, the Berbers, the Copts, and Nubians, the people of Zaghawa, Marw, Sind and India, Qamar and Dabila, China, and Masin... the islands in the seas between China and Africa are full of blacks, such as Ceylon, Kalah, Amal, Zabij, and their islands, as far as India, China, Kabul, and those shores
So the question is who were these Zanj(blacks), where did they come from and when etc. were they Natives of African diaspora?
Son of Ra Member # 20401
posted
I heard that word Zanj many times and knew what it meant. I thought it just meant people native to Africa? Also wasn't the people of the western Sudanic kingdoms/empires referred to as Zanj?
-Just Call Me Jari- Member # 14451
posted
The word Zanj usually referred to the people of the Swahili Coast(its where Zanzibar comes from) that is below Berbera(Somalia) and Habesha the label given to unite these people was "Sudan" land of the blacks which went from East to West Africa, similar to today's "Black Africa" etc. Although many parts of North Africa such as the Fezzan and Lybia etc. were included.
Son of Ra Member # 20401
posted
Yeah Libya always had an indigenous black population. What about Morocco? Southern Morocco has always had an indignous black population. Also I head of Africans from North Africa being pushed further south.
-Just Call Me Jari- Member # 14451
posted
Well its tricky when it comes to North Africa because while most of its population resembles the average Middle Eastern person, there are black natives and Mulattos. For example the Bidanes of Mauritania.
Some Saharan people/Berbers..
Moorish Men Algeria
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Yeah Libya always had an indigenous black population. What about Morocco? Southern Morocco has always had an indignous black population. Also I head of Africans from North Africa being pushed further south.
-Just Call Me Jari- Member # 14451
posted
More Saharans and Moors of Mauritania(clearly Africoid Features)
More Moors from Mauritanian and the Western Sahrah
Son of Ra Member # 20401
posted
Great post Jari!
Also are the so called Arabs of Mauritania really Arabized Berbers?
HidayaAkade Member # 20642
posted
Bump
-Just Call Me Jari- Member # 14451
posted
It depends, most of the Bidane in North Africa are mixed with Arab blood or of Pure stock. In Islam as long as one has paternal ancestry to Arabians then one is an Arab, which can confuse people in the west who are used to the "one drop rule".
Dont get it twisted many of the Bidane and Arabs are Arabs and subjugated not only the "blacks" but the Berbers such as the Sanhadja.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Great post Jari!
Also are the so called Arabs of Mauritania really Arabized Berbers?
Son of Ra Member # 20401
posted
quote:Originally posted by -Just Call Me Jari-: It depends, most of the Bidane in North Africa are mixed with Arab blood or of Pure stock. In Islam as long as one has paternal ancestry to Arabians then one is an Arab, which can confuse people in the west who are used to the "one drop rule".
Dont get it twisted many of the Bidane and Arabs are Arabs and subjugated not only the "blacks" but the Berbers such as the Sanhadja.
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Great post Jari!
Also are the so called Arabs of Mauritania really Arabized Berbers?
Okay thanks for clearing that up. The Moors of Mauritania you posted, are they of Arab admixture? And are those very same people descendants of the Moors?
the lioness, Member # 17353
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra:
Okay thanks for clearing that up. The Moors of Mauritania you posted, are they of Arab admixture? And are those very same people descendants of the Moors?
you can't tell by looking, either question
mena7 Member # 20555
posted
Djehuti nice map of Indian ocean sea trade showing trade routes that connect Africa, Arabia, India, Indochina and China.
Nice picture of Chinese with African Giraffe. The Chinese script is modified Egyptian hieroglyph. Western and Eastern civilization come from Egypt.
Okay thanks for clearing that up. The Moors of Mauritania you posted, are they of Arab admixture? And are those very same people descendants of the Moors?
you can't tell by looking, either question
You should apply this to yourself every time you pull random pics out of your lying ass. Trying to convince yourself and other eurocentrics that that is reality.
HidayaAkade Member # 20642
posted
Bump
mena7 Member # 20555
posted
4000 years old Chinese world map. The map is probably Kushite-Egyptian-Mande. The Ancient Chinese and Ancient Native American were African.
Before Colombus Turkish Admiral Piri Reis Egyptian map.
Piri Reis map of Europe, Africa, Carribean, Florida and Brazil.
Chinese pre European map of Africa.
Troll Patrol Member # 18264
posted
quote:Originally posted by Son of Ra: Great post Jari!
Also are the so called Arabs of Mauritania really Arabized Berbers?
Historically, yes!
mena7 Member # 20555
posted
The Ancient Egyptian explored Australia before the British.
5,000 year old Egyptian hieroglyphs found in New South Wales
by Paul White
There about 250 stone carvings that have been part of the local folklore of the area for nearly a century with reports of people who sighted them as far back as the early 1900's. The site was secretly visited by families "in the know" in the 1950's and fell back into local mythology for a couple of decades until it was accidentally rediscovered by a man looking for his lost dog.
The carvings are in a rock cleft, a large block of split sandstone on a cliff-face that has created a small chasm or "chamber" of two flat stone walls facing each other that widens out from two to four metres and is covered in by a huge flat rock as a "roof" at the narrow end. The cleft is most cave-like and only accessible by a small rock chute from above or below, well disguised from the average bush-walker.
When you first come up the rock chute and climb into the stone hallway you are immediately confronted by a number of worn carvings that are obviously ancient Egyptian symbols. These are certainly not your average Aboriginal animal carvings, but something clearly alien in the Australian bush setting. At the end of the chamber, protected by the remaining section of stone roof, is a remarkable third-life sized carving of the ancient Egyptian god Anubis, the Judge of the Dead.
Egyptologist Ray Johnson, who had translated extremely ancient texts for the Museum of Antiquities in Cairo eventually was successful in documenting and translating the two facing walls of Egyptian characters - which stemmed from the Third Dynasty. They allegedly chronicle a tragic saga of ancient explorers shipwrecked in a strange and hostile land, and the untimely death of their royal leader, "Lord Djes-eb".
A group of three cartouches (framed clusters of glyphs) record the name of "RA-JEDEF" as reigning King of the Upper and Lower Nile, and son of 'Khufu' who, in turn, is son of the King 'Sneferu'. This dates the expedition just after the reign of King Khufu (Cheops) alleged builder of the Great Pyramid. Lord Djes-eb may have actually been one of the sons of the Pharaoh Ra Djedef, who reigned after Khufu. Egyptian Dynasties
The hieroglyphic text was apparently written under the instruction of a ship's captain or similar, with the corner glyph on the wall displaying the title of a high official or chief priest. The scribe is speaking for his Highness, the Prince, from this wretched place where we were carried by ship. The expedition's leader, is described in the inscriptions as the King's son, 'Lord Djes-eb', who came to grief a long way from home. The hieroglyphics sketch his journey and his tragic demise. Burial rituals, prayers and preparations are described.
For two seasons he made my way westward, weary, but strong to the end.
Always praying, joyful, and smiting insects.
He, the servant of God, said God brought the insects.
Have gone around hills and deserts, in wind and rain, with no lakes at hand.
He was killed while carrying the Golden Falcon Standard up front in a foreign land, crossing mountains, desert and water along the way.
He, who died before, is here laid to rest.
May he have life everlasting. He is never again to stand beside the waters of the Sacred Mer. Mer meaning 'love'.
There was a moat around the pyramid called the "waters of Mer".
The second facing wall, which was much more seriously eroded, details the tragedy further.
This wall begins with the badly eroded glyph of a snake (Heft), with a glyph of jaws (to bite) and the symbol for 'twice'.
The snake bit twice.
Those followers of the diving Lord 'Khufu', mighty one of Lower Egypt, Lord of the Two Adzes, not all shall return.
We must go forward and not look back.
All the creek and river beds are dry. Our boat is damaged and tied up with rope.
Death was caused by snake.
We gave egg-yolk from the medicine-chest and prayed to Amen, the Hidden One, for he was struck twice.
We walled in the side entrance to the chamber with stones from all around.
We aligned the chamber with the Western Heavens.
The three doors of eternity were connected to the rear end of the royal tomb and sealed in.
We placed beside it a vessel, the holy offering, should he awaken from the tomb.
Separated from home is the Royal body and all others.
Here is inscribed the extraordinary story of the death and burial of 'Lord Djes-eb' one of the sons of the Pharaoh Ra Djedef.
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