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[QUOTE]Originally posted by tropicals redacted: [QB] @Professor Ortoz de Montellano [QUOTE] No, I'm not trying to mollify you. [/QUOTE]To be clear, I was referring to the professor who sent me your article and his comment on Africans being atop of an imagined racial hierarchy. [QUOTE] I have a long record of working against segregation and for the inclusion of minorities, women and the handicapped in science. As a graduate student, I helped to integrate Scholte's Garden, almost popular drinking spot in Austin. A Couple of other things: Founding member SACNAS (Society for the Advancement of Chicanos and Native Americans in Science. 1973-2- present Coordinator Minority Academic Affairs Univ. of Wyoming, Laramie, WY. 1975-76 Committee for Opportunities in Science, American Association for the Advancement of Science, 1979-85 State of Michigan Education Department, Committee on Multicultural Science Education Requirements, 1991-1998.. It's funny that most of my life I've been attacked for being a radical integrationist and now this. :-). The Dallas Morning News wrote in 1961 that the University YMCA-_WYCA, which I used to set up the Model UN "was Black-and-White and Red all over." [/QUOTE]I don't want to sound dismissive of your laudable efforts and contributions, but I've noticed that even ostensibly egalitarian types draw the line when it comes to the idea of ancient Egyptians as black African. [QUOTE] It's been 18 years since I wrote the paper. I guess it's due to the fact that the thrust of the paper was the wide variety of "magical" attributions to the melanin molecule and not a focus on the precise color of Egyptians. [/QUOTE]But in your paper you clearly took a position on the Egyptian race question, using cranial studies to support the following: [QUOTE] "[T]he claim that all Egyptians, or even all the pharaohs, were black, [b]is not valid[/b]. Most scholars believe that Egyptians in antiquity looked pretty much as they look today, with a gradation of darker shades toward the Sudan. [/QUOTE]I don't understand how, even if true, gradation in skin colour within an African population discounts it as being black--you must have noticed the variability in the complexions of African-Americans. Moreover, I found the statements " [b]all[/b] Egyptians", " [b]all[/b] the pharaohs" somewhat disingenuous, since you know that in the last thousand years of dynastic history the country was run by foreigners. [b]I think it would still be interesting if you could answer why you didn't mention the information on limb lengths? Especially since you included studies/references that helped to not only counter the idea that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans, but also the African Eve hypothesis.[/b] [QUOTE] I still think that Egyptians are a cline darker from Alexandria to Nubia and that modern Egyptians resemble Ancient Egyptians [/QUOTE][b]Might I ask what you're basing this on?[/b] Some of my reasons for scepticism as follows: Shomarka Keita concluded: "Cosmopolitan northern Egypt is less likely to have a population representative of the core indigenous population of the most ancient times." http://wysinger.homestead.com/keita6.pdf I sent this quote to Barry Kemp, who replied: "I suppose in a very broad, general way his statement is correct. But in Middle and Upper Egypt immigration of bedouin tribes intending to settle was going on into the 18th and 19th centuries. The Ottomans and Mamelukes, who were not really Arabs, brought in garrisons from the Balkans that were stationed even as far as northern Nubia. Egypt has been a real melting pot for peoples for a very long time, and still is, as it increasingly looks, from a Middle Eastern perspective, a relatively stable country and is therefore attracting refugees. Best wishes: Barry" So even Barry Kemp doesn't argue that the modern population is the same as the ancient one. There was also the paper from June this year, [i]Tracing the Route of Modern Humans out of Africa by Using 225 Human Genome Sequences from Ethiopians and Egyptians[/i], confirming the Nile as the predominant Out of Africa route. Following the genome testing,the following was concluded regarding the Egyptian sample (100): "Using ADMIXTURE and principal-component analysis (PCA) (Figure 1A) we estimated the average of non-African ancestry in the Egyptians to be 80% and date the midpoint of the admixture event by using ADLER to around 750 years ago (Table S2), consistent with the Islamic expansion and dates reported previously" (p2). But it would be interesting to read what you base your idea of biological continuity on. There are indeed Egyptologists and classicists who are more comfortable with the idea of biological continuity, but that doesn't make them right, does it? Particularly given the ideological baggage besetting these disciplines. [QUOTE] but I have pretty well kept out of the heated debate about that topic. [/QUOTE]After reading your paper, I don't know if that's strictly accurate. The fact is that an Egyptologist sent me it to discredit the idea that the ancient Egyptians were black Africans. [QUOTE] What is important is culture not the biological characteristics. [/QUOTE]If that were the case, then mainstream academia, museums and the media wouldn't have issues accepting the entirely reasonable inference that the indigenous ancient Egyptians were indeed a predominantly black African population. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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