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peer review demolishes Winters M-173
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [qb] Haplotypes with HVSI transitions defining 16129-16223-16249-16278-16311-16362; and 16129-16223-16234-16249-16211-16362 have been found in Thailand and among the Han Chinese [b](Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002) [/b] and these were originally thought to be members of Haplogroup M1.[/qb][/QUOTE]The M1 reference is your own. It is not in the papers cited. See below for recurrent mutations. [qb] [QUOTE]However, on the basis of currently available FGS sequences, carriers of these markers have been found to be in the D4a branch of Haplogroup D , the most widespread branch of M1 in East Asia [b](Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002)[/b]. [i]The transitions 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are known to be recurrent in various branches of Haplogroup M, especially M1 and D4.[/i]][/qb][/QUOTE]The difficulty here , and one that mystifies Clyde, are "recurrent mutations." Apparently some sites are more prone to mutations than others and thus can show up in different haplotypes. Thus it is important in determining a classification that all the identifying mutated SNPs be present. These are old papers by standards of the field-- I keep emphasizing that you need to check phylotree for changes that may have happened in the interval. M1 is defined by: T195C! G6446A T6680C C12403T A12950c G16129A! T16189C! T16249C T16311C! Yao, Y-G, et al 2002 “Phylogeographic Differentiation of Mitochondrial DNA in Han Chinese,” [b]Am. J. Human Genetics[/b] 70:635-651 polymorphisms 16129 and 16249 were not found [QUOTE]p 638 Among the three R* haplotypes that could not be classified as B or R9, two bear a mutation motif of 185-189-10398-16189-[b]16311,[/b] similar to the motif of B5, but were found to lack the 9-bp deletion. p. 641 Table 1 D4a [b]129[/b] 223 249 278 311 362 p 645 Type 1 ([b]16223-[16311[/b]-16357) matches haplotypes from M10 (one sampled in Liaoning and another one in Yunnan). p. 646 In contrast, sequence 19 [b](16223[/b], 146-263) has no close companion (at distance two or fewer mutational steps) in the Han The haplogroup affiliations of the resulting nine haplotypes, except for type 9 (16256-16278- 16295), can be recognized by following our classification strategy. Type 1 [b](16223-16311[/b]-16357) matches haplotypes from M10 (one sampled in Liaoning and another one in Yunnan), and type 7 (16284) matches a B4b haplotype from Liaoning. The other six types have one-step neighbors in the Han mtDNA database: type 2 ([b]16223-[/b]16234-16290-16319) is thus related to A haplotypes from Wuhan and Yunnan; type 3 [b](16223[/b]-16298-16319- 16355) to M8a haplotypes from Qingdao and Wuhan; type 4 (16223-16266-16274-16362) to a D4 haplotype from Liaoning and to D5a haplotypes from Liaoning, Wuhan, Xinjiang, and Qingdao; type 6 [b](16223[/b]-16278- 16362) to two G2 haplotypes and type 8 ([b]16223[/b]-16245- 16362-16368) to one D4 haplotype, all from Liaoning; finally, type 5 [b](16223[/b]-16357) is a one-step descendant of the matched M10 type 1 (but, alternatively, it would also be a one-step neighbor of an M* haplotype from Qingdao)[/QUOTE]Fucharoen, et al .2001 “Mitochondrial DNA polymorphisms in Thailand,” [b]J Hum Genet [/b]46:115–125 Polymorphisms 16249, 16311 not present [QUOTE]p. 121 A G-to-A transition at [b]16129 [/b]occurred in the majority of lineages from C2 (71%) and C6(88%), whereas these two clusters appeared at discrete positions in the phylogenetic tree. Thus, the above three polymorphisms are due to either recurrent mutations or ancient polymorphisms. Table 2 Cluster C2 52 16108:C/T (40%) [b]16129:G/A (71%)[/b] 16162:A/G (44%) 16172:T/C (63%) 16304:T/C (92%) 16519:T/C (88%) C5 10 [b]16223:C/T (100%)[/b] 16278:C/T (60%) 16519:T/C (40%) A C-to-T transition at [b]16223[/b] (nucleotide position in the reference sequence of Anderson et al. 1981) was shared by most members in clusters C3a and C4 through C8, while this polymorphism was virtually absent in clusters C1, C2, and C3b.[/QUOTE]As you can see in neither paper reports all the M1 identifiers. These recurrent mutations (16129, 16223,16311) are incorporated in the new haplotypes reported . For example, D4a, B4b, M10, etc. [QUOTE][qb]As you can see geneticist change the name of haplogroups to create confusion and deny relationships between Africans and non-Africans. Another example is V88, although it is R1-M173, it was given another name to make it appear to be different from the R1 group. In summary CHINESE carry African clades.[/qb][/QUOTE]There are [b]NO[/b] African genes in Thailand or China. There is no "international genetics conspiracy" plotting to confuse Afrocentrics and "deny Africa its place in the world." This is the normal progress of science - as research discovers new haploypes and relationships among them in different populations the phylotree has to grow and develop new branches. To do so in an orderly fashion sometimes names have to change to avoid overlapping and confusion and there has to be one organization to keep track and be the official source. Just like IUPAC regulates nomenclature in chemistry as new compounds are made and discovered. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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