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peer review demolishes Winters M-173
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QB] Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: An 8 year-old example of Winters misquoting papers. [QUOTE][Winters] posted 21 February, 2008 03:07 PM [QUOTE]quote: Originally posted by Clyde Winters: mtDNA research supports an African influence in Near Oceania. For example researchers have found that the Tanzanian M1 haplogroup cluster with people from Oceania (Gonder et al, 2006). In addition, the M1 mutations 16129,16189,16249 and 16311 are found in many southeast and East Asian haplogroups (Fucharoen et al, 2001; Yao et al, 2002). This molecular evidence further supports the Neolithic skeletal evidence of a recent migration of Africans to the Pacific and east Asian region after the initial exit from Africa of AMH.[/QUOTE]] [Ortiz de Montellano] As usual an incomplete, therefore misleading, quote. This is the complete quote and it does not support Clyde's argument: Gonder, M. K., et al. 2007 “Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages,” [bb]Mol. Biol. Evol. [/b]24(3):757–768. 2007 [QUOTE] Finally, our limited genetic data from Tanzanians belonging to haplogroups M1, N1, and J suggest 2 alternatives that are not mutually exclusive. Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana- Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest ‘‘back’’ migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.[/QUOTE][Rasol] [QUOTE] Meaning: Tanzana has M1, N1 and J haplotypes. M, *NOT* M1 is found in Oceana. N and J [including but not limited to N1] is found South West Asia and Europe. Nowhere is anything said about M1 found in Oceana.[/QUOTE][Ortiz de Montellano] [QUOTE]Not only is Rasol correct, but Gonder et al, as you can see from the title of the paper, " “Whole mtDNA Genome [b]Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages" is not dealing with recent gene flow from Africa but rather with the initial Out of Africa expansion of mode humans[/b][/QUOTE]. Gonder, M. K., et al. 2007 “Whole-mtDNA Genome Sequence Analysis of Ancient African Lineages,” Mol. Biol. Evol. 24(3):757–768. 2007 [QUOTE]mtDNAs belonging to haplogroups M and N form 2 monophyletic clades (fig. 2A). These 2 M and N haplogroup clades included a few Tanzanians (belonging to haplogroups M1, M, N1, and J), suggesting possible recent gene flow back into Africa and/or that ancestors of [b]the Tanzanian populations may have been a source of migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions (fig. 2B). Or from Gonder's phylogenetic tree, the date of the last common African and non-African haplotypes [/b] The age of the youngest node containing both African and non-African sequences (node S) is 94.3 6 9.9 kya and represents an upper bound time estimate for an exodus out of Africa. isolated quotes are meaningless unless they are set in context with the entire paper.[/QUOTE]subsequently I wrote to Dr. Gonder to verify my interpretation of her paper and Winters’s error [QUOTE]Date: Mon, 17 Mar 2008 09:34:07 -0400 Subject: Re: supplementary material From: [b]Katy Gonder mgonder@umd.edu[/b] To: Bernard Ortiz de Montellano <bortiz@earthlink.net> Thread-Topic: supplementary material Hi, [b]You are correct, we were referring to the initial migration of out of Africa.[/b] Cluster together....I haven’t looked at the tree in detail for some time, but as I remember, the TZ M formed part of the “basal” lineages containing both African and non-African mtDNA genomes. Many of the non-African genomes were of oceanic origin. [/b] We were definitely not referring to anything that happened with the last few thousand years.[/b] Hope that helps. Katy On 3/16/08 11:20 PM, "Bernard Ortiz de Montellano" <bortiz@earthlink.net> wrote: Hi Thank you so much for sending me the supplementary information for your paper. I have no idea why Molecular Evolution and Biology made it impossible to download. Unfortunately, they do not answer my basic question. Clyde Winters has been quoting your paper in support of his theory that the Mande migrated out of Africa a few thousand years ago ,i.e. in - BioEssays 29:497-498, 2007, Winters writes that your paper supports his claims that Mande speakers migrated from Africa to become the Dravidians of India. Quote: "Anna Oliviera et al. argue that M1 must have originated in West Asia, because none of the Asian M haplogroups harbor any distinguishing East African root mutations. (30) They claim that the presence of any East African M1 root mutations in Asian-specific clades suggest a recent arrival of M1; and that the absence of M1 root mutations among Eurasian sister clades indicate a back migration into East Africa of HG M1. (30)” [Winters] Oliviera et al. claim that East African M1 root mutations are absent in Eurasian M sister clades is not supported by the evidence. (36) For example, Gondar [sic] et al. make it clear that the Tanzanian M1 haplogroup cluster with people from Oceania. In addition, Roychoudhury et al. noted nucleolides shared by East African M1, and Indian M haplogroups include HG M4 at 16311; HG M5 at 16,129; and HG M34 at 16,249."[/QUOTE]Winters is referring to the following passage in your paper: [QUOTE] "Populations in Tanzania may have been important in the migration of modern humans from Africa to other regions, as noted in previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Quintana- Murci et al. 1999). For example, mtDNAs of Tanzanians belonging to haplogroup M1 cluster with peoples from Oceania, whereas Tanzanian mtDNAs belonging to haplogroup N1 and J cluster with peoples of Middle Eastern and Eurasian origin. However, the presence of haplogroups N1 and J in Tanzania suggest ''back'' migration from the Middle East or Eurasia into eastern Africa, which has been inferred from previous studies of other populations in eastern Africa (Kivisild et al. 2004). These results are intriguing and suggest that the role of Tanzanians in the migration of modern humans within and out of Africa should be analyzed in greater detail after more extensive data collection, particularly from analysis of Y-, X-, and autosomal chromosome markers. Our analyses of African mtDNAs suggest populations in eastern Africa have played an important and persistent role in the origin and diversification of modern humans.[/QUOTE][Ortiz de Montellano] I think that when you speak of Tanzanian M1 "clustering" with Oceania etc. the reference is to the initial Out of Africa migration not to fairly recent events. Is this correct? What exactly did you mean by "cluster together" thank you so much for any help you can provide. Bernard Ortiz de Montellano Emeritus, Professor of Anthropology Wayne State University [/QB][/QUOTE]
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