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peer review demolishes Winters M-173
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Quetzalcoatl: [QB] More Winters' misquotations-- an old one .Winters [qb] [QUOTE]In the Popol Vuh, the famous Mayan historian Ixtlilxochitl, the Olmecs came to Mexico in "ships of barks"(probably a reference to papyrus boats or dug-out canoes used by the Proto-Saharans) and landed in Potonchan, which they commenced to populate.Mexican traditions claim that these migrates from the east were led by Amoxaque or Bookmen. The term Amoxaque, is similar to the Manding 'a ma n'kye':"he (is) a teacher". These Blacks are frequently seen >in Mayan writings as gods or merchants.[/qb][/QUOTE]Quetzalcoatl Total baloney. 1) This shows that Winters knows nothing about Mesoamerica and the written sources and makes elementary mistakes that I would fail my students in their first course on Mesoamerica for committing. Anyone who knows anything about Mesoamerica would know, at a glance, that Ixtlilxochitl IS NOT A MAYA NAME BUT A NAME IN NAHUATL. Fernando de Alva Ixtlilxochitl, a Texcocan 17th century historian (1578-1650) had nothing whatever to do with the [b]Popol Vuh[/b] a Guatemalan Quiche mythological work from an unknown author. So much for Winters' control of the literature. 2) Just like other Afrocentrists (and Scientific Creationists) one cannot trust Winters’ quotations or paraphrases of sources. Words are added in and interpretations made that appear to support the pre-conceived thesis. In this case Ixtlilxochitl [b]SAYS NOTHING ABOUT “SHIPS OF BARKS”.[/b] The relevant quote from F. De Alva Ixtlilxochitl. 1975 [1608][b]] Obras Historicas[/b] ed. E. O’Gorman, vol. 2: 7-8. Mexico: UNAM. [In a passage dealing not with history but with the origin myths of the Aztecs, NOTICE NOT THE MAYAS, including the previous 4 creations and destructions of the earth]. [QUOTE]Those that possessed the new world in this third creation were the Olmecs and Xicalancas. According to the stories there are they came in ships or boats from the East to the land of Potonchan. Which they began to people. And on the shores of the Atoyac river which passes between the city of the Angels [the colonial city of Puebla] and Cholula [b(]this is near Mexico City not the Maya area[)/b] they met some of the giants who had escaped the catastrophe and extinction of the second creation of the earth. These giants being strong and trusting in their strength and size of body lorded it over the newcomers, in such a fashion that they oppressed them as if they were slaves . . .[/QUOTE]3) This passage in Ixtlilxochitl says nothing about the “amoxaque” WHICH IS NOT ANY KIND OF MAYA BUT NAHUATL.This term is found in Sahagun’s[b] Florentine Codex[/b]. Winters is using Van Sertima or perhaps Wiener with his usual twist. Van Sertima argued that [b]amoxaque[/b] really came from Egyptian [funny how pliable and flexible Nahuatl is- it resembles whatever language the current diffusionist needs (Shang Chinese, Egyptian, Mande, Phoenician, Latin, Welsh, etc.), whereas Winters says it is Mande. Both are full of baloney. To begin with 1) neither Van Sertima nor Winters knows enough to see that the word which they copied from the Spanish version not the Nahuatl version of the[b] Florentine codex[/b] is misspelled; 2) Neither Van Sertima nor Winters knows that Nahuatl is an agglutinative language that elides letters so that the word they want to derive from either Egyptian or Mande is composed of AMOXTLI (“books”- HUA (possessive) QUE (plural form) to form AMOXHUAQUE pronounced /amoshwaque/ which has zero resemblance to Winters’ “so called” Mande which would need to be verified in any case given the track record we have seen already. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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