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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by jantavanta: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] As usual Clyde comes up with a convoluted argument and says the oldest Chinese remains were "Negroid" but then turns around and says that the earliest Chinese dynasties were Africans.... Black people generally are the oldest populations in Asia, as evidenced by New Guinea and Australia, along with other aboriginal groups in South Asia. This "African" connection to black populations in Asia because of "features" is simply absurd. The genetic lineages of these people are Asian as one would expect of very ancient aboriginal populations. But of course that wont stop Clyde from trying to connect every black population in the world in history to Mande speaking Africans.... [/qb][/QUOTE]The entire Black populations of the Americas and Asia, are of African Origin. Clyde has done well by connecting every Black population in the world to Africans. His using the Mande, is the language he has access to. Others have used Igbo language in Nigeria. [/qb][/QUOTE]No they aren't. The DNA of the ancient aboriginal blacks in the Americas do not match any African population. The original populations of the Americas came from Asia and the initial groups were aboriginal black Asians from various parts of Asia and the Pacific. I don't know why folks keep insisting that somehow black skin outside of Africa indicates RECENT African ancestry. Skin color and features are tied to the environment and there are environments outside Africa that support populations with those features. Black folks in Asia are Asians. They are aboriginal, meaning been in place since the original OOA migrations 60,000 years ago. Australian Aborigines are not recent African migrants. Solomon Islanders are not recent African migrants. The Aboriginal Populations of Thailand, the Philippines and so forth are not recent African migrants..... That said, it doesn't mean there hasn't been African contact in these areas since OOA. It just means those contacts don't represent the basis of or reason for black skin in those areas. For example, Swahili trade with Asia. Not Africans no matter how they look, their DNA is primarily Type O. [/qb][/QUOTE]You're can't read. I said that the founders of Xia were Africans, because most of them came from Elam. They spoke a Mande language and belonged to the Mande clan Kunta. These Africans came from Elam. The Elamites said they were Kushites. The Kushites came from Africa. Stop lying, haplogroup O, is carried by Southeast Asians, not Native Americans. The major American Indian male lineages include R1, C,D and Q3.There is evidence of African admixture in the American y-chromosome haplogroups. The Q y-haplogroup has the highest frequency among indigenous Mexicans. The frequency hg Q varies from a high of 54% for Q-M243, and a low of 46% for QM (34). African y-chromosome are associated with YAP+ and 9bp. The YAP-à associated with A-àG transition at DYS271 is found among Native Americans. The YAP+ individuals include Mixe speakers (32-33). YAP+ is often present in haplogroups (hg) C and D. The DYS271 transition is of African origin (32).The DSY271 Alu insertion is found only in chromosomes bearing Alu insertion (YAP+) at locus DYS287 (33). The DYS271 transition was found among the Wayuu, Zenu and Inzano. The Mexican Native American y-chromosome bearing the African markers is resident in haplogroups C and D (34). R-M173 is also found in Mexico. Haplogroups R and Q are part of the CT microgroup which dates back 56kya. Haplogroup R branches from hg Q, with the SNP M242. The CT haplogroup has SNP mutation M168, along with P and M294. Haplogroup P (M45) has two branches Q (M242) and R-M207 which share the common marker M45. The M45 chromosome is subdivided by the biallelic variant M173 (35). In Africa we find P (M173), R1b (M343) and V88; and R1b1a2 (M269). Native Americans carry a high frequency of R-M173 (48). The predominate y-chromosome in North America is R-M173. R-M173 is found only in the Northeastern United States along with mtDNA haplogroup X (25%). Both haplogroups are found in Africa, but is absent in Siberia. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/NativeM173.gif[/IMG] . There are varying frequencies of y-chromosome M-173 in Africa and Eurasia. Whereas only between 8% and 10% of M-173 is carried by Eurasians, 82% of the carriers of this y-chromosome are found in Africa. It is becoming clear that R-M173 originated in Africa and was taken to Europe by Africans, just like it was transferred to North America. Toomas Kivisild1 (2017).The study of human Y chromosome variation through ancient DNA. [URL=http://download.springer.com/static/pdf/613/art%253A10.1007%252Fs00439-017-1773-z.pdf?originUrl=http%3A%2F%2Flink.springer.com%2Farticle%2F10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1773-z&token2=exp=1489183874~acl=%2Fstatic%2Fpdf%2F613%2Fart%25253A10.1007%25252Fs00439-017-1773-z.pdf%3ForiginUrl%3Dhttp%253A%252F%252Flink.springer.com%252Farticle%252F10.1007%252Fs00439-017-1773-z*~hmac=24695c2ca2d38453e4590f1f36ecbe3460081666be2a012850ce733db98fb049]web page[/URL] Haplogroup V88 is the oldest R1 haplogroup. Kivisild et al (2017) is interesting. It is most interesting because it places V88 in ancient Europe. Kivisild (2017) also made it clear that V88 is the earliest offshoot of R-M343 . [QUOTE] Late Neolithic, Early Bronze Age and Iron Age samples from Central and Western Europe have typically the R1b-L11, R1a1-Z283 and R1a-M417 (xZ645) affiliation while the samples from the Yamnaya and Samara neighbourhood are different and belong to sub-clades R1b11-Z2105 and R1a2-Z93 (Allentoft et al. 2015; Cassidy et al. 2016; Haak et al. 2015; Mathieson et al. 2015; Schiffels et al. 2016). [IMG]https://static-content.springer.com/image/art%3A10.1007%2Fs00439-017-1773-z/MediaObjects/439_2017_1773_Fig7_HTML.gif[/IMG] The R1b11-Z2015 lineage is today common in the Caucasus and Volga-Uralic region while being virtually absent in Central and Western Europe (Broushaki et al.2016). Interestingly, the earliest offshoot of extant haplogroup R1b-M343 variation, the V88 subclade, which is currently most common in Fulani speaking populations in Africa (Cruciani et al. 2010) has distant relatives in Early Neolithic samples from across wide geographic area from Iberia, Germany to Samara (Fig. 7). [/QUOTE]R1 was first introduced to North Americans by the Khoisan who introduced the Salutrean culture to North America. Other African migrants brought R1 to America in later years. As late as 1300 around 25,000 Malians came to America with Abubakari, many of these Malians carried R1. They were spread across North America. The Malians spread across the North America via the Mound Culture in Mid-America and along the Coast. This is why some North American Native Americans spoke a Mande language or Mande is a substratum language. A good example of the Malians in the North America are the Nanticokes. The Nanticokes were described by B.S Barton as very dark. This tribe of Black Native Americans formerly lived in the Chesapeake Bay and Delaware. They later settled in Wyoming, Oklahoma and Canada. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/Nanticokeoldman.jpg[/IMG] During the Revolutionary War, the Nanticoke sided with the British and many Nanticoke migrated to Canada, while others went into hiding or moved out West. By 1867, the Nanticoke moved to Kansas with the Lenape. There chiefdoms were called Monie, Wicomoco and Manokin (,Mandekan ?). In 1741-51, J.C. Pyrlaeus collected the Numerals of the Nanticoke. This was before the Revolutionary War. Around this time the Conoy people joined their tribe. The numerals collected by Pyrlaeus when they were compared to other numerals by Murray in 1873, they did not match numerals in any known Indian language. Brinton found that they were identical to Malinke-Bambara numerals. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/nanticokenumerals.png[/IMG] These numerals make it clear the Nanticoke were descendants of the Malian explorers. Below are Nanticoke at the Lenape-Nanticoke annual celebration. [IMG]http://media.nj.com/south-jersey-times/photo/2014/06/15210404-standard.jpg[/IMG] . [IMG]http://www.cityprofile.com/forum/attachments/delaware/17885-millsboro-nanticoke-indian-powwow-2.jpg[/IMG] . The Nanticoke make it clear that they are "Muurs". The nanticoke have two origin traditions. The first is that they formerly lived in the Central U.S. and migrated eastward 300 years before the coming of the Europeans to avoid incessant warfare. The interesting thing about this tradition is that it would place their origin in the Central U.S., to around the time Abubakari sailed to the Americas and built many mounds along the Mississippi River. Another, Nanticoke tradition traces their descent to "Muurish" sailors who were shipwrecked on the Maryland shore. See: [IMG]http://olmec98.net/naticoke2.png[/IMG] . This is very interesting given the presence on R-M173 is found among many American Indian groups (48). R-M173 among the North American Algonquian group range from Ojibwe (79%), Chipewyan (62%), Seminole (50%), Cherokee (47%), Dogrib (40%) and Papago (38%) . These Indian groups have a long association with Africans and many live in areas were Europeans found Black Native Americans. In most studies of North American Indians, any evidence of African haplogroups are excluded from all analyses (47). Exclusion of evidence of non-Amerindian admixture and non-foundational Amerindian haplogroups is regularly left out of publications on Native American DNA (49). The R haplogroup is carried by Mexicans. The frequency of hg R varies from Tarahumara (5.6%), Otomi (14.3%), Yucateca Maya (10.5%). There is also a high frequency of haplogroup R among the Ch'ol and Chontal which stood around 15% (38). The Ch'ol and Chontal also carry E1b1b (38). The Spanish identified the Otomi as a Black Native American tribe(11). African ancestry has been found among indigenous groups that have had no historical contact with African slaves and thus support an African presence in America, already indicated by African skeletons among the Olmec and Mayan people. Lisker et al, noted that "The variation of Indian ancestry among the studied Indians shows in general a higher proportion in the more isolated groups, except for the Cora, who are as isolated as the Huichol and have not only a lower frequency but also a certain degree of black admixture. The black admixture is difficult to explain because the Cora reside in a mountainous region away from the west coast" (22). A recent study of African - Mexican admixture yielded a frequency range between 22-41% (25). In one study the researcher found that 3% of Native Americans showed African haplogroups (25). Underhill et al , noted that:" One Mayan male, previously [has been] shown to have an African Y chromosome" (31). This is very interesting because the Maya language illustrates a Mande substratum, in addition to African genetic markers (3) Plus the Chontal were identified as a Black Native American tribe (11). The African haplogroups among indigenous Mexicans include L0a1a'3, L2a1, L3b, L3d, and U6a (25). Interestingly, an individual at Laguna de los Condores, Peru dating between AD 1000-1500 carried L3 (36). Green et al also found Indians with African genes in North Central Mexico, including the L1 and L2 clusters (25). An important indicator of African admixture is 9bp (22,27). Haplogroup B is defined by 9bp (27) and is linked to haplogroup A. The 9bp marker is reported among the North Mexicans. It is common among the Mixtec (27). Some indigenous Mexicans show the G6PD deficiency. In a study of Yucatecos, Tzellzal-Tzoltzil, Mixteca and Mestizo it was found that people on the Oaxaca coast suffered from G6PD deficiency (22). Lisker also found G6PD deficiency in Costa Chica (22). The G6PD deficiency is usually carried by SSA. Indigenous Indians at Tlaxcala contains 8% African genes, but historically no Africans lived in the area (37). Researchers have also found L1, L2 & L3 clusters among many Mexicans including the Cora, Mixtec and Zapotecs (39-41) It is interesting to note that the proportion of African haplotypes roughly equivalent to the proportion of European haplotypes [among North Central Mexican Indians] cannot be explained by recent admixture of African Americans for the United States (41). This is especially the case for the Ojinaga area, which presently is, and historically has been largely isolated from U.S. African Americans. In the Ojinaga sample set, the frequency of African haplotypes was higher than that of European hyplotypes"(41). Human Leukocyte Antigens (HLA) polymorphism is used to investigate ethnic relationships and origins. Africans and Indigenous Mexicans share HLA alleles. In Table 2 we outline the relationship. Gutherie in a study of the HLAs in indigenous American populations, found that the V antigen of the Rhesus system, considered to be an indication of African ancestry, among Indians in Belize and Mexico centers of Mayan civilization (45). Dr. Gutherie also noted that A*28 common among Africans has high frequencies among Eastern Maya (45). [IMG]https://www.webmedcentral.com/articlefiles/1bceb7f1089567a5a436eac0ba29f695.jpg[/IMG] In addition to A*28 , there is a high frequency of HLA B*35 among Mexicans and SSA (46). The frequency of HLA B*35 among indigenous Mexicans and SSA is high ranging between 22-31% among SSA populations and 30-45% among MA groups (46). It is interesting to note that the Otomi, a Mexican group identified as being of African origin and six Mayan groups show the B Allele of the ABO system that is considered to be of African origin. It is time that researchers stop claiming the first Native Americans were not Negroes. Reference:[list] [*]Skoglund et al (2015), Genetic evidence for two founding populations of the Americas , NATURE ,525 ( 3 SEPTEMBER):104-108. Retrieved 5/1/2016 at : [URL=http://www.nature.com/articles/nature14895.epdf?referrer_access_token=4TuRenNBfBRS7tHNMAY1qdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0N6yB-nEyCdRoL51ykMO5E9z_7mdrRF_UTJvxtpDQnayOfwuJnrOCxIhdm8_7djDnDo9Obq-VbpDatHfBozg8WnuFcDDHGC6D1QQbbgmyediLKefzmJLdqOP9IYieqkoaey_M8XA-n4Ua9CD3IbOslIqWUnXzIWbLwafl9bJMOQNAJlELt6cfooH162H7W_3B8%3D&tracking_referrer=mobile.nytimes.com]http://www.nature.com/articles/nature14895.epdf?referrer_access_token=4TuRenNBfBRS7tHNMAY1qdRgN0jAjWel9jnR3ZoTv0N6yB-nEyCdRoL51ykMO5E9z_7mdrRF_UTJvxtpDQnayOfwuJnrOCxIhdm8_7djDnDo9O bq-VbpDatHfBozg8WnuFcDDHGC6D1QQbbgmyediLKefzmJLdqOP9IYieqkoaey_M8XA-n4Ua9CD3IbOslIqWUnXzIWbLwafl9bJMOQNAJlELt6cfooH162H7W_3B8%3D&tracking_referrer=mobile.nytimes.com[/URL] 1.Alcina-Franch J.(1985). Los orígenes de America. : Editorial Alhambra. 2. Arnaiz-Villena,A, Moscoso, J.,Serrano-Vela,I. 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Bolnick DA, Smith DG (2003) Unexpected patterns of mitochondrial DNA variation among Native Americans from the sou°theastern United States. Am J Phys Anth 122(4): 336-54. doi: 10.1002/ajpa.10284 48. Winters,C. (2011). Is Native American R Y-Chromosome of African Origin?. Cur Res J Bio Scien, 3(6): 555-558. Retrieved 3/16/2015 at : http://www.academia.edu/1898582/Is_Native_American_R_Y-Chromosome_of_African_Origin 49. , Ripan Malhi et al. (2006) Mitochondrial haplogroup M discovered in prehistoric North Am J Arch Scien 34 (2007),http://public.wsu.edu/~bmkemp/publications/pubs/Malhi_et_al_2007.pdf 50. Moreno-Estrada A, Gravel S, Zakharia F, McCauley JL, Byrnes JK, et al. (2013) Reconstructing the Population Genetic History of the Caribbean. PLoS Genet 9(11): e1003925. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.1003925. http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1003925 51. Rafinesques, C.(1832). Primitive Black Nations of America. Atlantic Journal,1(3):.85-86. https://books.google.com/books?id=BWo3AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA85&dq=Primitive+Black+Nations+of+America +by+Professor+Constantine+Rafinesques&hl=en&sa=X&ei=VVsIVZbBFcONyASP6oC4AQ&ved=0CC4Q 6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Primitive%20Black%20Nations%20of%20America%20by%20Professor%20Constantine%20R afinesques&f=false [/list] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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