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Do some looking for yourself. See Nassim Nicholas Taleb's works on the issue.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Do some looking for yourself. See Nassim Nicholas Taleb's works on the issue.
what issue? Nobody has any idea of what you are talking about
the lioness, Member # 17353
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the lioness, Member # 17353
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the lioness, Member # 17353
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the lioness, Member # 17353
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Yatunde Lisa Member # 22253
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Why use all these 19th century photos the Maure or Tamasheq are alive and well today . Africans? Eurasian back migrants? Regardless, they resemble many people classified as Aframs today. Black folks with straight hair is not an uncommon thing among AA's.. and many believe that all of the family histories in AA's tree's of black folks with straight hair attributing them to Native American's is actually not native americans but partial descendant from Northwest Sahelian Africans who got caught up in the slave trade i.e. Maure and fulani
Azalai, The Caravan of Peace - Now in High Quality! (Full Documentary)
In 1985, I conducted research on the role of the Maures in Senegal's economy and society. In interviews with hundreds of Maures resident in Senegal and with black Senegalese, I found a strong undercurrent of mistrust between the two communities. Maure shopkeepers in Dakar feared walking alone day or night, and stories abounded of Senegalese violence against Maures. Senegalese viewed Maures as avaricious and dirty; Senegalese children sent to Maure shops for household goods would routinely insult the shopkeepers.
Many Mauritanians viewed their Senegalese clientele with contempt, marked by feelings of racial and religious superiority. For example, Maures told me that Senegalese ''aren't true Muslims,'' perhaps because few Senegalese know much Arabic, the language of the Koran, and because of other cultural differences.
These historic ethnic tensions are reflected in the language each community uses for the other. The usual Maure term for black Africans in Senegal was ''haratin,'' or ''slave''; black slaves still exist in part of Mauritania. The Senegalese refer to Maures as ''Naars,'' which derives from the Wolof word for ''fire.'' This is a legacy from the times when Maure slaving parties would attack and burn the villages of black Senegalese farmers. The recent violence was, unfortunately, only the latest to disturb the ethnic and cultural faultlines that divide Arabic-speaking North Africa from the largely black south. STEVEN BRAUTIGAM Brooklyn, May 12, 1989
The writer was a Fulbright Scholar in Senegal in 1985.
"Nar" is the general denomination of the inhabitants of North Africa and the Middle East. They have a very important presence in Senegal since they constitute the first foreign community before the French. The two most represented nationalities are the Lebanese and the Moors of Mauritania, nevertheless very different. We can also note for 2 or 3 years a massive arrival of Algerians who settled in the Dakar Region to flee either the Islamists or the government ... It is true that Senegal is a rich among the poor and that he is democratic. Life being cheap there these Algerians have found a peace that they no longer have in their country. Moroccans are few but very popular because they are the only members of the Arab world to respect the Black people and not to show racism towards the Senegalese. The love between Morocco and Senegal is hundreds of years old since Senegal in its history has had many exchanges with this country. Today, Morocco and the non-Western country to receive the most Senegalese students. The Moors that nevertheless remain the most numerous are the Nars. They are easily recognizable since they almost all wear a long blue Djelabbah and a beard. Avares to say their way of life and their activities may seem strange to Europeans. They rarely mix with Senegalese and most often live a hardened single life. A large part of the small Senegalese trade belongs to them and is one of their two activities, the second being the manufacture of jewelry and other silver objects. Having no leisure time, almost all of their profits go back to Mauritania. Their distribution is very well organized since in the smallest remote villages they sometimes hold the only shop. Their silver craftsmanship is very beautiful and cheap although the metal used is not very pure. Lebanese are estimated at nearly 40,000 (of which barely 25% have Senegalese nationality) also live in rather closed circles. Their activities are very varied but in general, they hold the means trade. Fabrics and fast food (chawarma) are their leading professions but many doctors, surgeons and other medical professionals practice in the country. They are also present throughout the territory but in large cities only. The African press sometimes criticizes their lack of integration (marriages between Lebanese, etc ...). They come from either the "colonial" wave or exodus caused by the Lebanon war.
Two studies on ethnic group relations in Africa 'a Senegal The United Republic of Tanzania
Unesco Paris 1974
The Moors in Senegal IntheWoloflanguage,theword ‘Nar’isusedtodesignatetheArabs andeventheSemitesasawhole;theMoorsarelabelled‘NarGanar’. Their Muslim faith and familiar use of the Wolof language enable 22 them to adjust without difficulty to the Senegalese milieu.But their functions in retail trade put them in a special position with regard to the consumer in Senegal. In Moorish shops there are a host of food and household items sold in small quantities to fit the day-to-dayrequirementsand low spending power of the housewife. The shopkeeper also sells on credit.Heisthereforeoftenneededbutoftentaxedwithprofiteering. It is on this basis that the place of the Moors of Senegal in the life of the society is that of marginal elements rather than of foreigners. The Moors regard themselvesmore as members ofthe extensive Arab community than of the African community proper. Their special pride is the use of the Arabic dialect which is their mother tongue.O n occasion we encountered Moors w h o evinced a sense of superiority over Senegal’sblack African ethnic groups,while it must not be forgotten that in Mauritania conflicts have sometimes set the Moors and the Tukulor living on the rightbank ofthe River Senegal at each other’s throats. However,it is only fair to say that the Moors living in Senegal are extremely well adjusted to the ambient society.Most of them prefer the Wolof to the other Senegalese,perhaps because of both group’sbent for trading. The Wolof regard the Moors with some mistrust. In the past the Moors had the reputation of stealing black children to make slaves o f t h e m . H o w e v e r , t i m e s h a v e c h a n g e d greatly, for n o n e o f our informants produced this old stereotype.T h e mistrust today is that of the consumer towards the retailer with w h o m he is in direct daily contact. This apart,the Senegalesefrequently criticizethe Moors for carelessness in dress and even dirtiness. In fact we noted a sharp contrast between the taste of the Senegalese in general,of either sex, and of the Wolof in particular,for the elegant ceremonialcostumes of black Africa and for personal grooming and the Moor’s Saharan simplicity of dress. The Moors are as economical over clothes as over everything else and often wear their garments ‘till they fall apart’,hence the reactions of the Wolof and others. T o the Moor’s feeling of ethnic superiority over the blacks of Senegal,the latter respond by a tacit sense of superiority on other grounds. W e need only consider the Saharan environment of the Moors and the urban setting of the Wolof of Dakar and St Louis to Ethnic group relations in Senegal 23 Two studies on ethnic group relations in Africa appreciate frictions which, in Senegal, do not reach the level of conflict or even of serious tension. There are marriages between Moors and Wolof;Moors sometimestake Wolof wives,and Wolofs sometimesmarry Moorish women.HereIslammakesitpossibleto riseaboveadifferencethatisnotonlyethnic.ThefutureoftheMoors in Senegal wil probably depend on their ability to become em- ployable in sectors other than trade.
Interviews
Interview with Mr C
Mr C was 40,a Wolof and a Muslim by religionlike his wife "Generally speaking,the Nar are great sectarians.The Nar Ganar do not give much away. The only relations they have with other ethnic groups are those of trade. They sell and w e buy. They don’t get married but they run after the girls. The Nar are good, practising Muslims and also very thrifty. All that matters as far as they are concerned, is getting money. However much a Nar may own, he wil always sleep on a mat. They always live below the level their means would allow whereas the Serer and the Diola live according to their means. The Nar won’t have anything to do with modern life. The black Nar are ‘Wolofized‘and like everything the Wolof do except where clothes are concerned.The Nar are rather backward and it is uncommon to find any ofthem in an enviable situation. My daughter wil not marry a Nar because they do not have the same ideas as we do.They reject modernity and are,at best,merchants or butchers"
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Hassaniya
Hassaniya Arabic (Arabic: حسانية also known as Hassaniyya, Klam El Bidan, Hasanya, Hassani, Hassaniya) is a variety of Maghrebi Arabic. It was spoken by the Bani Ḥassān Bedouin tribes, who extended their authority over most of Mauritania and Morocco's southeastern and Western Sahara between the 15th and 17th centuries. Hassaniya Arabic was the language spoken in the pre-modern region around Chinguetti.
The language has now almost completely replaced the Berber language that was originally spoken in this region. Although clearly a western dialect, Hassānīya is relatively distant from other Maghrebi variants of Arabic. Its geographical location exposed it to influence from Zenaga-Berber and Wolof. There are several dialects of Hassānīya which differ primarily phonetically. Today, Hassānīya is spoken in Algeria, Libya, Morocco, Mauritania, Mali, Niger, Senegal and the Western Sahara.
According to Ethnologue, there are approximately three million Hassaniya speakers, distributed as follows:
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The Mauritanian Naar(for English speakers the "a" is long)are essentially migrants from North West Africa. Their original language is a Berber dialect heavily influenced by Arab words following the Arab invasions from the 8th century onward.
Just for prestige reasons these Berber descendants imposed Arabic as the official language of Mauritania some years ago. The language of the Naar people is problematically linked with Arabic.
Mauritanian Berbers and Occam's Razor Using Occam's Razor on the issue of the Naars in Mauritania--the French imposed colonial name--it is obvious that they are simply Beber migrants from West North Africa whose language has been Islamized and Arabized following the Arab invasions from the 8th century onward.
Their official claim to be Arabs is merely for colonially derived prestige purposes.
There is a large community of Mauritanians in Senegal, including tens of thousands of black Mauritanians expelled by their own government during a 1989 border incident.
In early 1989, tensions arose between Mauritania and Senegal due to conflicts over water resources in the Sénégal River valley. As a result, white Mauritanian Moors in the Senegalese capital Dakar became the targets of communal violence, while in Mauritania itself, black Mauritanians came under suspicion as "Senegalese fifth columnists".[2] To prevent further violence, the governments of Mauritania and Senegal began to organise mutual repatriations of their citizens from each other's territories in April that year; however, Mauritania did not just remove Senegalese citizens, but an estimated 70,000 black Mauritanians as well.[3] Those expelled were largely of Halpuular ethnicity.[4] The border between the two countries would not be reopened until April 1992.[5]
Repatriation began slowly after the reopening of the border. Refugees returning to Trarza and Brakna generally found conditions to be good, but those going back to Gorgol and Guidimaka complained of continued discrimination by local authorities.[6] Reports in early 2013 indicated that returnees continued to face difficulties resettling in their former villages and regaining access to the lands they had once farmed due to their lack of identification documents.[7]
Ish Gebor Member # 18264
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Again, you are much in error. The Naars in Senegal are not Arab and their language is not Arabic.
Don't so blindly trust what you dredge up in the heavily Eurocentric internet.
This is true, there are groups “arabized” or and claim to be Arabic.
This problem was also addressed by S. O. Y. Keita, a few years ago at that symposium. Where groups or individuals sometimes make ancestral claims.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Again, you are much in error. The Naars in Senegal are not Arab and their language is not Arabic.
Don't so blindly trust what you dredge up in the heavily Eurocentric internet.
This is true, there are groups “arabized” or and claim to be Arabic.
wrong, the Mauritanians in Senegal are in part Arab and and speak an Arabic dialect as well, stop the nonsense. Because some berbers claim to be Arab and are not does not mean there are not Arabs there. In addition there are also African Mauritanians there who are not Arab See basic Mauritanian history for details
lamin Member # 5777
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The term "Arab" refers to those whose "mother tongue" is Arabic. Such persons may have been in areas that have been Arabized and Islamized following the Arab invasions of West Asia and North Africa.
Just as the citizens of the French Departments of Martinique and Guadeloupe are French by nationality, yet they are not "Francais de souche", i.e. "French by origin". Similarly Arabaized Berbers of North Africa whose ancestors spoke languages different from Arabic are not "Arab by origin". Such pertains mainly to the original inhabitants of the Arabian peninsula.
Of course, that does not stop the vain fakery that many Arabized people claim---that they are related to Muhammad. That kind of fakery is called "Sherifism".
In this regard, the Mauritanian Berbers are not "Arabe de souche". Plus, they are not called Arab in the Senegambia area.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Mauritania Foreign Policy and Government Guide, Volume 1
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Historical Dictionary of Mauritania By Anthony G. Pazzanita
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The Ignored Cries of Pain and Injustice from Mauritania By Sidi Sene
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Ish Gebor Member # 18264
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor:
quote:Originally posted by lamin: [qb] Again, you are much in error. The Naars in Senegal are not Arab and their language is not Arabic.
Don't so blindly trust what you dredge up in the heavily Eurocentric internet.
This is true, there are groups “arabized” or and claim to be Arabic.
wrong, the Mauritanians in Senegal are in part Arab and and speak an Arabic dialect as well, stop the nonsense. Because some berbers claim to be Arab and are not does not mean there are not Arabs there. In addition there are also African Mauritanians there who are not Arab See basic Mauritanian history for details
S. O. Y. Keita addressed the same problem. You aren't going to teach me any of this.
There are Arabized groups in Africa and some claim to be Arabized.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264
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Kiffian
Forensic reconstruction Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration
Tenerean
Forensic reconstruction Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration
Gobero People
Forensic reconstruction Resin, University of Chicago and Project Exploration
the lioness, Member # 17353
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quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: S. O. Y. Keita addressed the same problem. You aren't going to teach me any of this.
There are Arabized groups in Africa and some claim to be Arabized.
You are trying to convince people that there are no people who have Arabian genetic ancestry living in Mauritania or Senegal.
And you are doing this for political reasons
You are trying to convince people that because that there are Arabized aboriginal Mauritanians who were converted to Islam and culture that there are no people who have Arabian genetic ancestry living in Mauritania or Senegal.
And you are doing this for political reasons
lamin Member # 5777
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Such as?
the lioness, Member # 17353
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quote:Originally posted by lamin: Such as?
such as read all the data I posted
Tukuler Member # 19944
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Yemeni Arab banu Hassan tribesmen conquered in situ Zenaga iMazighen impossing their language and culture.
Baydani (white/clear Brown) Maures have various measures of Yemeni paternity. 'Caste' pends heavily on Hassan lineage real or imagined. The upper classes will produce their pedigree papers going back to Arabia no matter if factual.
The right people to picture in Senegal are its Atlantic and other NC speakers. Arabic and/or taMazight speakers are foreigners but pre-Hassaniya Zenaga were sprinkled around south of the river.
We don't like how Hassaniya hate our hair and skin and assume Senegalese females are available for their use and discard.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Ish Gebor: S. O. Y. Keita addressed the same problem. You aren't going to teach me any of this.
There are Arabized groups in Africa and some claim to be Arabized.
You are trying to convince people that there are no people who have Arabian genetic ancestry living in Mauritania or Senegal.
And you are doing this for political reasons
You are trying to convince people that because that there are Arabized aboriginal Mauritanians who were converted to Islam and culture that there are no people who have Arabian genetic ancestry living in Mauritania or Senegal.
And you are doing this for political reasons
Physical anthropology doesn’t support your theory. Sorry!
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![[Cool]](cool.gif)
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
S. O. Y. Keita addressed the same problem. You aren't going to teach me any of this. 
