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"Darwinists don't accept direction in evolution." -- Swenet
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: But randomness by itself [b]does not tell you how the first cells formed[/b] and how chromosomes developed.[/QUOTE]Speak for yourself. You don't speak for others. That is indeed what they're saying--that the things you mention evolved by pure chance alone. You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. After pushing back against 'direction', you're now talking about "invention of DNA" to explain these cell structures. Someone could argue that "invention of DNA" necessarily means divine intervention, since there is nothing else to account for it. [/qb][/QUOTE]No you are confused because you keep trying to interpret words I say as being 'part of some ideological camp'. So I am speaking for myself. You just don't understand what I am saying. Biochemical processes as in the "rules" which say "under so and so circumstances cellular organisms and chromosomes will arise" are not "random events". You keep trying to take the WHOLISTIC process that constitutes the development of life and boil it down to ONE THING. It doesn't work like that. Evolution combines BOTH random mutations within genetic reproduction AND the environmental pressures which act to filter the mutations and produce those most suited to a particular condition. But underlying all of that is organic bio-chemistry which is the basis of all cells and cells are the basis of all life forms on earth. Trying to nit pick and isolate one part from another is what leads to confusion and people putting down stakes and pushing narrowly focused ideologies that make no sense. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] You're not making any sense talking about "unlocked genetic codes that aren't random" and "invention of DNA and RNA" when you've already committed to "natural processes" (as opposed to any sort of 'intervention'). You were very specific about what causes evolutionary change on the first couple of pages: [i]Cellular biology and division is shown to be [b]based on genetic mutation. Genetic mutations are based on environmental feedback. That is the basis of all evolutionary change in living organisms.[/b][/i] --Doug M Not that I expect you to make sense of your contradictions. You're never addressing inconsistencies people see in your views. You just steamroll over what they're saying by posting walls of text and repeating things that completely miss the point. But go ahead, try to make sense of these contradictions without doing more gymnastics. [/qb][/QUOTE]No you aren't making any sense trying to find something to nitpick. I told you that I am not into these games yet you persist. Technically genetic mutations ARE affected by direct environmental feedback, but this is not exactly what I was getting at. This affects the evolution of single cell organisms most directly but multi-celled organisms can also be affected. All the cells in multi celled organisms are constantly reproducing themselves. So cellular reproduction and the mutations that arise from cellular reproduction are part of all organisms. That said you are splitting hairs like I said, trying to find contradictions by nitpicking. Nowhere was I contradicting "evolution". What I said [QUOTE] Personally it sounds more like splitting hairs versus "divine intervention". All mutations and change in life is based on natural processes. Chemistry and all that lies within the universe is a natural process. Rules and laws that govern the universe and natural processes within it are understandable and can be shown to be consistent. Cellular biology and division is shown to be based on genetic mutation. Genetic mutations are based on environmental feedback. That is the basis of all evolutionary change in living organisms. Now that said, there are some who do not agree with the process of cellular development as purely based on natural selection. All aspects of biological diversification ultimately trace to evolutionary modifications at the cellular level. This central role of cells frames the basic questions as to how cells work and how cells come to be the way they are. Although these two lines of inquiry lie respectively within the traditional provenance of cell biology and evolutionary biology, a comprehensive synthesis of evolutionary and cell-biological thinking is lacking. We define evolutionary cell biology as the fusion of these two eponymous fields with the theoretical and quantitative branches of biochemistry, biophysics, and population genetics. The key goals are to develop a mechanistic understanding of general evolutionary processes, while specifically infusing cell biology with an evolutionary perspective. The full development of this interdisciplinary field has the potential to solve numerous problems in diverse areas of biology, including the degree to which selection, effectively neutral processes, historical contingencies, and/or constraints at the chemical and biophysical levels dictate patterns of variation for intracellular features. These problems can now be examined at both the within- and among-species levels, with single-cell methodologies even allowing quantification of variation within genotypes. Some results from this emerging field have already had a substantial impact on cell biology, and future findings will significantly influence applications in agriculture, medicine, environmental science, and synthetic biology.[/QUOTE]Environmental feedback operates at many levels, part of it is directly on the cells themselves and genomes within them and indirectly via natural selection. There is no contradiction as you are trying to say there is. There are multiple interrelated processes at work within biology and evolution and the fact that people keep trying to narrow down and isolate one part of these biochemical processes from another as the "whole process" is the problem. [QUOTE] The expression of genes in an organism can be influenced by the environment, including the external world in which the organism is located or develops, as well as the organism's internal world, which includes such factors as its hormones and metabolism. One major internal environmental influence that affects gene expression is gender, as is the case with sex-influenced and sex-limited traits. Similarly, drugs, chemicals, temperature, and light are among the external environmental factors that can determine which genes are turned on and off, thereby influencing the way an organism develops and functions.[/QUOTE] https://www.nature.com/scitable/topicpage/environmental-influences-on-gene-expression-536 [QUOTE] Gene mutations can be classified in two major ways: [list] [*]Hereditary mutations are inherited from a parent and are present throughout a person’s life in virtually every cell in the body. These mutations are also called germline mutations because they are present in the parent’s egg or sperm cells, which are also called germ cells. When an egg and a sperm cell unite, the resulting fertilized egg cell receives DNA from both parents. If this DNA has a mutation, the child that grows from the fertilized egg will have the mutation in each of his or her cells. [*]Acquired (or somatic) mutations occur at some time during a person’s life and are present only in certain cells, not in every cell in the body. These changes can be caused by environmental factors such as ultraviolet radiation from the sun, or can occur if an error is made as DNA copies itself during cell division. Acquired mutations in somatic cells (cells other than sperm and egg cells) cannot be passed to the next generation. [/list] Genetic changes that are described as de novo (new) mutations can be either hereditary or somatic. In some cases, the mutation occurs in a person’s egg or sperm cell but is not present in any of the person’s other cells. In other cases, the mutation occurs in the fertilized egg shortly after the egg and sperm cells unite. (It is often impossible to tell exactly when a de novo mutation happened.) As the fertilized egg divides, each resulting cell in the growing embryo will have the mutation. De novo mutations may explain genetic disorders in which an affected child has a mutation in every cell in the body but the parents do not, and there is no family history of the disorder. Somatic mutations that happen in a single cell early in embryonic development can lead to a situation called mosaicism. These genetic changes are not present in a parent’s egg or sperm cells, or in the fertilized egg, but happen a bit later when the embryo includes several cells. As all the cells divide during growth and development, cells that arise from the cell with the altered gene will have the mutation, while other cells will not. Depending on the mutation and how many cells are affected, mosaicism may or may not cause health problems. [/QUOTE] https://ghr.nlm.nih.gov/primer/mutationsanddisorders/genemutation [/QB][/QUOTE]
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