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"Darwinists don't accept direction in evolution." -- Swenet
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] Doug, if you say "natural laws act on their own, in a closed self-sufficient system", you're talking about European philosophies and the hubris of these researchers thinking the universe neatly fits into 'clockwork' models they've invented. [/qb][/QUOTE]Swenet you are mixing up two different things. I was the one who brought up the arrogance of European thought two pages ago. So I agree with you that there is a limit to "empirical data" and how much in the universe is ultimately "knowable". I already mentioned this already. Whether or not the Europeans are "arrogant" in thinking they will ever know everything about everything is totally separate from and does not justify the idea that things like physics or chemistry requires god to understand. Whatever propaganda Europeans have promoted about the historical processes in human thought that brought about science, that does not "prove" the existence of anything "outside" of nature as the basis of or reason for existence. You keep trying to argue the "existence of something outside nature" as the basis for how the universe works without committing to the work of actually SHOWING how the European point of view is wrong. Just saying the European view is wrong and "proving" it are two different things. I am not defending European views on anything other than to say the reason why people use "newtonian physics" is because it works in day to day practical applications. And ultimately these ideas aren't even Newtonian to begin with. Humans have been developing these kinds of techniques since long before newton. Not to mention all Europeans don't agree with Newton either and there are alternate models of the universe along side of Newton as well. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] No other people think like that. There are inklings of atheism in other cultures historically, but these people don't subscribe to materialism and 'clockwork universe' non sense. So what you're talking about is not universal knowledge that is compatible with and verifiable by other cultures. You're just being duped with European doctrines posing as science. But if you want to think that natural processes acting on their own is universal science, more power to you. [/qb][/QUOTE]I am not being duped by anything because I am not part of any "camp" which you keep trying to put me in so you can restate what I already said pages ago. People around the world use solutions developed as a result of Newton's ideas every day because they work in solving every day problems, regardless of their religious beliefs. Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Athiests, Jews and all other sorts of people use these things and study these things as part of science every day. Most people have already separated "science" from religion and belief a long time ago. People don't build skyscrapers based on "beliefs in supernatural beings". They build skyscrapers based on math and science and physically observable facts and rules. They have always been doing that even when science and religion were closely together in cosmology. Separate from that, people have been pontificating and theorizing about how the universe came about for thousands of years and there are many different schools of thought on this issue. So again, regardless of that, this does not justify a belief that something "outside of nature" created the physical universe. All I am saying is that the history of math and science is part of the evolution of human symbolic thinking and this ultimately developed into math and "gods" as symbols for the rules and laws or "powers" at work in nature. But that does not mean when it came time to build a temple or a pyramid that these folks believed there was a "supernatural being" or something "outside nature" that was responsible for lifting heavy objects into place. It was math and science that was responsible for that work. And they developed math and science from observing nature and developing theories and recognizing patterns and ultimately developing language and then the symbolic language of math. So this isn't new stuff. In fact much of the "mystique" around some ancient cultures was in the way they shrouded their mathematical and scientific knowledge within their symbolism. This is part of the "art" of science and math. And they were very rigorous and exacting in their application of said knowledge. Hence the pyramids. The pyramid as a symbol of creation, a symbol of the prism of light and sunshine refracted into the physical world, a symbol of the first time of creation and first spark in a continuous chain of events in creation and a symbol of all these concepts and the deities that represented them, was still based on observation of "natural processes" and the development of math as a set of symbols which is not necessarily based on the belief in "non natural" forces at work in the universe when it came to lifting those blocks into place. You aren't unique in the way you think is all I am saying and whatever the European propaganda may say about the nature of the universe, what people actually think on a day to day basis is totally different and varied. Europeans have been as superstitious, mystical and esoteric in their thinking as much as any other group on the planet. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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