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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ase: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Nassbean: [qb] Again you have zero evidence that they looked like nubians or ethiopian you're just making assumptions so you can claim egypt as a black civilization and therefore a civilization closer to afram than to the MENA people...[/qb][/QUOTE]I just posted evidence that Upper Egyptians resembled Nubians and Ethiopians more than they did Lower Egyptians and the Maghreb. And I'm not sure what you mean by saying AE civilization is closer to African Americans than MENA. It is possible for a given group of people to resemble one group more than another in one way, only for it to be a different story once the subject of comparison is something else. African Americans aren't suggesting their culture nor most modern cultures are like Ancient Egypt. Phenotypically, AE's founders were Black but most African Americans don't think they're the closest blacks to Ancient Egyptians. Your problem is you're approaching this entire conversation with a false dichotomy. Can Upper Egypt be closer to Blacks phenotypically? Yes. Could it be possible they were closest to a group of people that aren't Black genotypically? Yes (though we don't know that and their STR data so far wouldn't suggest it). Is it also possible cultural connections weren't neatly spread along biological lines? That as many of you MENA would tell it, the "genetically dissimilar" Nubian and southern Egyptian were closest culturally? Yes. How do you engineer the idea Sudanese and southern Egyptians were not related biologically like the southern Egyptians were to "MENA", and then get surprised that when people want to acknowledge the common cultural relationship of Sudan and southern Egypt it's done via notions of race? You can celebrate having a common ancestry with the ancient Egyptians if in fact the founders are revealed to genetically resemble you. But that'd be more or less a manner of complaining over apples and oranges because Blacks (unless Nubian) aren't saying they identify with Egypt over kinship in the first place. Only a very small minority of Blacks are saying that, and of course the fringes of the community is where you will focus your emotions. For most rational people, what seems so confusing is your interest in claiming exclusive social ownership of the entire culture and formation of the state in broader terms. People aren't in tears when you identify with it, but when many MENA get mad, for saying it was so much as Black that's when it gets annoying. "MENA" wasn't even generally where the culture was developing. Most of the culture's development was taking place at the southern end of Egypt into Sudan. Whether the people were exceptionally related or not, that's what happened. Much of the "MENA" region was for the most part absorbed into the phenomenon after the culture was starting to take off. So how does "MENA" then strong arm and get into it's feelings? IDK. Crying whenever Sudanese and Nubians say it's theirs and when other parts of the world say it's Black because the phenotypes of both peoples were Black regardless of biological relationship. I'm sorry if some people don't want to hear this. But the truth is Nubia was culturally much closer than Maadi-Buto cultures prior to southern colonialism. Nubians also phenotypically resembled the originators of dynastic Egypt. It's possible other MENA in the future could be found to be more closely related to ancient southern Egyptians when reviewing autosomal data. But even if that happened, there's a legitimate basis for Blacks to connect with the idea it was a Black culture: MENA were generally more culturally and phenotypically distinct in ancient/predynastic times from the southern kingdoms of predynastic Egypt and Sudan. And the cultural dissimilarity within northern Egypt was the case up until it was absorbed and assimilated by southern Egyptian rulers--something that is not true for Nubia. Yes the most famous example of the Nile Valley culture is found in Egypt, but pharonic culture was something shared between the southern end of Egypt and Sudan (Sub Saharan Africa). Not northern Egypt, not the Middle East. The fact that MENA is constantly acting in a state of denial about a Nubian connection only bolsters Ancient Egypt's position as a Black civilization. So the story you guys are telling is these genetically dissimilar people who only shared a Black phenotype made a common culture together--but Blacks can't celebrate it as a Black culture? Why don't you go to Melanesian communities to spread genetic realism to them? Why is it fine when people we know to be genetically dissimilar celebrate being Black all over the world until it's Egypt? You want to have your cake and eat it too and it's not going to happen. [QUOTE][qb]Now that you know that egyptians were not blacks (because everything show it) you're trying to imply that the great majority of them mixed with levantines and that before this event they were like nubians and ethiopians and created everything which is completely false ( provide evidence like me stop talking). [/qb][/QUOTE]I didn't say they "created everything." I said they founded the civilization. Those that made the civilization were Black. And whether the non blacks living outside southern upper Egypt were closely related to them or not, mixing with northern Egyptian types AND incoming Levanites changed how the country looked from it's founders. Non-Black Egyptians contributed to Egyptian civilization, but the culture itself was produced by Black people. The southern Egyptians that would rise north to "unify" Egypt phenotypically (if not genotypically) resembled Nubians and Ethiopians. The phenotypes of segment of the Egyptian population most directly ancestral to the country's founders is what began changing. [QUOTE][qb]ANd also stop bringing your american nonsense such thing about race don't exist here in the old world it's not a social construct if you're genetically black then you're black. Period. [/qb][/QUOTE]What is "genetic Blackness" if a Torres Strait islander and Igbo are both Black? Do you have any concept of how large the genetic distances you're talking about are? OR that both groups are more closely related to NON Blacks than they are each other? But of course the hypocrisy of it all is that when they create Black history month for themselves and push Australia for recognition your asses are nowhere to defend whatever the hell "genetic blackness" means. It's only when the world sees the question of Egypt do people get in their feels. Take a seat. [QUOTE]Also no one in the scientific field consider aboriginal australians to be "black" they are australoids and apparented to other south east asian populations. [/QUOTE]No one cares what people using -oid terms think Aboriginals are. The mainstream scientific community admits race is not a REAL genetic construct but a social one. SOCIALLY they have been denigrated as Black people. This is the problem with you goal post shifting race realists. You constantly try to ignore how people were treated against color labels, and revise history using fictional -oid races that don't match up to any of that. They were treated and referred to as a BLACK people like many other subjugated Melanesians. Many racist white Egyptologists couldn't also wait to discuss how savage and sub human the Upper Egyptians were. If they'd been alive they'd have been suffering attempts at colonialism like all the other Blacks. You can't just erase that history and try to make it something else. They have a Black history. It's not the same as a West African's but no one was arguing that it was. [QUOTE]The problem here is that you consider this to be black (because of your american background) : https://imgur.com/M2Dzfmf which is not black here in the old world but a north african with a good amount of ssa ancestry ( and don't tell me he doesn't look like some AE) [/QUOTE]Yes, many AE would've looked like him, and when discussing race as a western globalist cultural construct --that man would be treated as Black. He'd have harder time than a man that looks like Colin Kapernick [IMG]https://pixel.nymag.com/imgs/daily/intelligencer/2017/10/13/16-kaepernick.w700.h467.jpg[/IMG] The "old world" unless you're discussing Western Europe didn't create the concept of race that has globalist powers behind it. Their ideas are local opinions that lack power--much like Black Dominicans crying about how they're anything but Black. EVERY group of people has had some tribal idea that separated people. I am not about to go blue in the face discussing humanity by the thousands of local us-them ideologies, but the one that has been backed by globalist power and trillions of dollars. WE are talking about how the idea of Blackness--as a social construct engineered by western globalists operates. To sit here and talk to me about the old world while then trying to prove your point by the race fiction of Europeans is disingenuous. [QUOTE][qb]Also why do you not speak about the trans saharan slave trade who probably brought more blacks in NA than arabs+levantines and europeans combined ( almost 10 millions of black slaves were brought in NA between the 10th and 19th century ! and you that it doesn't affect it ?? ) [/qb][/QUOTE]Why would I need to discuss the slave trade when the Upper Egyptians born before it looked more like Nubians and Ethiopians? [QUOTE]let's see what the datas show us : "A proportion of 1/4 to 1/2 of North African female pool is made of typical sub-Saharan lineages, in higher frequencies as geographic proximity to sub-Saharan Africa increases. The Sahara was a strong geographical barrier against gene flow, at least since 5,000 years ago, when desertification affected a larger region, but the Arab trans-Saharan slave trade could have facilitate enormously this migration of lineages." [/QUOTE]I really could, but I'm getting bored of discussing genetics in a thread I specifically wanted to discuss race. Why are you talking about geographical barriers and gene flow? Even if it weren't possible to traverse the Sahara from tropical Africa through the Nile Valley (you can), what does that have to do with phenotyipic affinity? OR that Ancient Upper Egyptians closely resembled Blacks? [QUOTE]"The attempt to force the Egyptians into either a “black” or a “white” category has no biological justification. Our data show not only that Egypt clearly had biological ties to the north and to the south, but that it was intermediate between populations to the east and the west, and that Egypt was basically Egyptian from the Neolithic right on up to historic times. In this, our analysis simply reinforces the findings of other recent studies" source : https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/pdf/10.1002/ajpa.1330360603 [/QUOTE]As a whole that's accurate. But when you ask who Upper Egyptians further south resembled, not the whole of Egypt, they typically resemble Ethiopians and Nubians. How come Rhodesia was white despite all the Blacks living there, but Egypt isn't associated with the people who founded it? It has to be associated with the sum of everyone that live there. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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