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Dutch Museum Controversy over depiction of Tutankhamun as Nas
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] [QUOTE]No I am challenging you who opens all these threads trying to attack black people and blame them for the history of racism and colorism in society and culture. You keep doing this and then pretend to be dumb when someone calls you out on this.[/QUOTE]I feel free to open any thread I want which have any connection to subjects which are usually talked about here on ES. And some ethnocentric Americans trying to put their noses into others history are always worth challenging. [/qb][/QUOTE]And when you do open such threads it is fair game for scrutiny and discussion correct?. This museum exhibit was not created by African Americans nor was it even created in America. Yet you sit here and are trying to use it as a way to attack African Americans. That was the point you keep refusing to address. And just like you have the right to your opinions and express yourself, so do African Americans have the right to do the same, whether you agree with them or not. But instead of simply acknowledging that right, you sit here and attack African Americans whenever they say or do anything you don't agree with as if they don't have the same rights as you do. This is the problem I am pointing out which you keep promoting in almost all of your posts. African American artist freely expressing themselves as Africans are not "attacking" anybody. And for the modern Egyptian government to claim that they are is nothing but extremism, but apparently you are OK with that. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Btw, Funny, I never seen you attack some of the more or less anti white threads which have been posted here on ES, where whites have been called "albinos", "cave peoples" and similar and posters are accused of being nazis or similar. Then I do not see you post long diatribes about having to challenge anti whiteness. Seems a bit biased. [/qb][/QUOTE]You don't know me nor what I have and haven't posted about on this forum. And it isn't relevant to you making spam posts on the same topic as a proxy to attack African Americans. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Egypt is an independent nation, they have the right to ban anyone that they feel misrepresent their history or identity. We as westerners may like it or not like it, but it is still their right. Still they are not as extreme as some reactions in some other muslim countries when they feel westerners are insulting their religion (as the cases with Muhammad cartoons or Quran burnings have shown). [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, the Egyptian Government knows full well that they do not have the power to attack African American artists and their freedom of expression. That is the entire point. So they are attacking a European museum for exhibiting African American cultural expression and not the African American artists themselves. African American pop culture is one of the biggest exports of the United States and has been for over 100 years, yet according to you attacking the Dutch Museum is somehow not extremism in the slightest. That doesnt even make sense. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] But I can understand that some Egyptians reacting over Americans and others trying to define their ancestors or their history. [/qb][/QUOTE]So you are saying that Egyptians promoting extreme anti-African behaviors is OK. That is the problem because it isn't OK. And that is why I keep calling you out because you sit here and complain about African American artists simply dressing up like an ancient Nile Valley African, claiming this is attacking Egyptians when it isnt. But when Egypt literally promotes extremist anti-African sentiments and actions, that is perfectly fine. Suppressing free expression and freedom of speech because you don't like it is not "understandable", it is extremist and anti-African. Not to mention African American artists have dressed up like all kinds of different cultures, but only somehow in your mind is it a problem when it comes to the Nile Valley, which is actually IN AFRICA. So you are admitting that the whole point of the thread is to promote extremist anti-African, anti-black, anti-African American propaganda. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Then one can always discuss if it is fair that they seem to react harder when "black" Americans do it than if "white" Americans and Europeans do it. But they also have reacted when Israeli actors, or actors supporting Israel have portraid persons from Egypt´s history. [/qb][/QUOTE]It isn't fair. Period. To sit here and act like it is while complaining about your rights to express yourself on this forum, no matter how backward and nonsensical your posts are is hypocrisy. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Some African Americans are always posting a lot of nonsense online where they claim ancient Egypt, ancient Greece, ancient Israel, ancient Native Americans and so on. Of course Egyptians and others have noticed that. So if they reacting when African Americans do the same also in other media is not surprising. As long as some blackcentric fools continue to do such things there will be counter reactions, sometimes maybe exaggerated, but identity can be a sensitive issue for certain people. [/qb][/QUOTE]And here you go again whining about some random African Americans that you don't cite by name and show how they have anything to do with any of the artists in this museum exhibit. But because of that, you are arguing that it is perfectly fine for Egypt to promote extremist actions to suppress free expression and speech. That is like me saying because white nationalists post hate speech against Africans on stormfront about Africans, it is OK to ban you and anybody like you on this forum. But this is literally all you do on this forum to try and stifle any serious discussion that you don't like, right, wrong or otherwise. You don't care about facts as that comes from free expression, discussion and analysis of evidence. You just want to push propaganda against Africans as if they have no rights to the same free expression of ideas as anybody else. And the hypocrisy is outrageous as you are sitting here as a European trying to tell Africans what they can and cannot discuss relating to African history. To the point of supporting extremist actions of the Egyptian government trying to do just that. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] I do not endorse any anti black propaganda, what I am opposed of is Black American, ethnocentric individuals who try to cling on to, and steal cultures that are not theirs. Whatever color for example ancient Egyptians had so have still Black Americans nothing with ancient Egypt to do. Most do not descend from that part of the African continent. The true inheritors to ancient Egypt is todays Egyptians and they are also the ones that have the responsibility to care for the part of that heritage which is located in Egypt. The Afrocentric babblers online do not do much for Egypts heritage, more than a lot of talk on the net. [/qb][/QUOTE]Where is the proof that these African American artists have done anything to provoke Egypt into such actions. Because you haven't shown it. You just keep citing random anonymous African Americans somewhere on the internet as support for this nonsense with no direct evidence of connection to anybody in this exhibition. This is all you do on this forum. The internet is full of all kinds of people with all kinds of ideas, yet you keep citing random individuals as proof all African Americans think and believe the same thing to promote anti-African and anti-black propaganda, with your passive aggressive nonsense. If you cant' prove any direct evidence that these artists did anything to actually justify this kind of response other than simply dressing like or using ancient Nile Valley Africans as artistic inspiration, you yourself are promoting anti-African propaganda. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Black people can discuss what they like but they have no right to distort history or to claim others heritage as their own with the argument that the progenitors of those peoples allegedly were "black". [/qb][/QUOTE]How is artistic expression distorting anything? African American artists have a long history of being inspired by many different cultures all over the world. Again, this is you who has had every chance on this forum to discuss and debate facts related to the ancient Nile, trying to use any means to stifle free speech, not because it is necessarily wrong, but because you don't like it. Africans have every right to discuss African history and to sit here and claim that somehow black skin in ancient Africa is somehow not based on evidence and science is simply you promoting anti-black and anti-African propaganda. And this is the reason why the Egyptian government is attacking it, because they have an explicit anti-African and anti-black bias, especially when it comes to the ancient Nile Valley. And this has absolutely nothing to do with facts or evidence and this is exactly what you believe in and are supporting. Because at no time on this forum have you proven to anybody that ancient Africans on the Nile Valley did not create the ancient civilization there, even though you have had every opportunity to prove it. And you haven't. So you resort to simply promoting the suppression of free speech and thought because you don't like it. While claiming every right to express yourself and your nonsense. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Seems many of the online Afrocentrics are more interested in declaring other peoples ancestors black, than to discuss their own West African and Central African ancestors. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, attacking anonymous Afrocentrics, because some artist dressed like an ancient African is making up nonsense. How do you know that any of the artists in this exhibition are Afrocentric? You keep trying to make connections with no proof in order to promote this propaganda against freedom of expression, freedom of thought and freedom of speech as somehow justified when it comes to Africans. And then try and claim this is reasonable and acceptable to spew this nonsense on this forum under the guise of free speech and not get called out for it. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Well, Egyptians have the right to ban anyone they think misrepresents their history. There is nothing you or I can do about it. So just live with it. [/qb][/QUOTE]Egypt does not have the right to suppress free speech or artistic expression or any other human rights. The fact that you are sitting here arguing it is OK for you to sit here and say this under the protection of "free speech" but don't extend that same right to anybody else is the problem. Because if someone tried to ban you over it, you would go whining and complaining while literally arguing that this kind of suppressing of speech is justified against Africans, with no proof, no nothing, all just because you don't like it. And you have not shown any viable arguments why black Africans did not create the ancient culture in the Nile Valley, all you keep promoting is half truths, innuendo and nonsense. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] I do not say that Africans stole anything from Africa. Black Americans are Americans, and like their white counterparts they also claim others heritage, the difference is that they have no power to realize their claims. They can not go to Egypt or Mexico and claim the ancient ruins or artifacts. But it does not hinder some of them to express such wishes. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, this is about artistic freedom of expression and the larger issue of freedom of speech and why you keep sitting here demanding that African Americans right to free speech and expression should be suppressed but yours shouldn't, even if you are wrong as two left shoes. And again, you have no proof or evidence that any of these artists are doing anything more than practicing their right to freedom of expression, while suggesting those rights shouldn't exist. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb]I do not tell African Americans what to talk about, I have not that power, but if Egyptians start to ban some African Americans for distorting Egypt´s past, or if Native Americans gets offended by having others trying stealing their history I can understand that. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, here we go blaming all the bad things in the world on Africans and African Americans and suggesting that they be suppressed and their rights don't exist because some random anonymous person on the internet said something. I can't believe you are sitting here being serious. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb]I do not have to prove anything, no people have the obligation to give away their history to cultureless Americans. [/qb][/QUOTE]Then you have no right to argue that what you are saying is correct unless you can prove it. You haven't shown how these artists and their freedom of expression is an attack on anybody. You haven't shown how ancient Africans couldn't be black in the Nile Valley. All you keep doing is arguing that you have the right under freedom of speech to sit here and attack African Americans and Africans for having ideas that you disagree with, without proving why those ideas are wrong. And you claim that you have that right to be wrong, but nobody else does, even if you haven't shown where in any particular case someone is wrong. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] Most African Americans are not Egyptians, have never been Egyptians and will never be Egyptians. Better the Afrocentric extremists online learn to live with that fact and start to take interest in their own history instead of harassing Egyptians (and Native Americans and others) who try to defend their history. [/qb][/QUOTE]And neither are you so what gives you special rights to discuss and promote Egyptian, Mexican or any other history? Because according to you, only Mexicans should discuss Mexican history, only Europeans should discuss European history and only Egyptians should discuss "Egyptian" history (even though "Egypt" didn't exist before the Greeks). It is all complete hypocrisy because you don't actually believe that because you constantly speak on history that isn't "your" history all the time. You just want to suppress freedom of speech on the part of Africans because somehow you don't want them to talk about "black" people because according to you "black" people are the problem. And if someone calls you out on that BS, the first thing you argue is freedom of speech, while literally saying Africans don't have the right to talk about African history and you aren't an African. Come on dude. And you still haven't shown how any of this is relevant to artistic expression as artists always are influenced by cultures around the world. Which means you also believe African Americans have no right to any kind of expression at all if it promotes "black" people in any way. But according to you, that is perfectly acceptable free speech. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb]So how long will they remain African, European or Asian? When will they be American? Never? Or 1000 years from now? So if one should follow that reasoning there are no real Americans, except the Native Americans. [/qb][/QUOTE]The point is why are you turning a museum exhibit on African American artists and their artistic influences from the Nile Valley into a discussion of ancient history when it is just artistic expression. And why do you constantly feel the need to police and scrutinize expression of Africans over everybody else as if there aren't even more non Africans spewing nonsensical opinions and views all over the internet. I don't understand how you can sit here and argue that hypocrisy and anti African propaganda is legitimate free speech. If you have some proof of these artists doing more than expressing themselves then prove it. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] It is not according to me, obviously some Egyptians do not want their traditional culture to be associated with rap or other American pop culture. And they have the right to chose themselves what foreign cultures they will accept or not accept. And as you yourself imply, there are some Egyptians who obviously like and accept rap and similar, while others do not. It is fully up to them to decide. Todays Egyptians have many roots in ancient Egypt which hardly any African American has. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, your whole argument is that Africans don't have the right to freedom of expression because "black" is a problem. And you don't see how that is anti-black and anti-African. And this is completely without any proof or evidence that these artists are actively attacking anybody anywhere. But you claim their rights and freedoms should be suppressed because "black people is a problem. And you literally feel that you have the "right" to promote this kind of suppression of free speech as part of your own free speech rights. Am I correct? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb]Actually, Egypt do indeed have a Mediterranean coast. They also have very ancient contacts with Mediterranean civilisations. But there are several groups in Egypt, they are not a monolith, some may identify as Mediterranean, some as Arabs, others as Africans, but most just identify as Egyptians. [/qb][/QUOTE]And there you go contradicting yourself. So if Egypt is an African country with black Africans in it today, how is it a problem for Africans to claim that there were black Africans on the Nile in the past? And why are you as a non Egyptian and non African sitting here and trying to argue that you have the right to speak about African or Egyptian history, while Africans don't. Again, where is the proof of these artists being influenced and identifying with the obvious ancient African culture of the Nile Valley as a problem? The only thing I see from you is hypocrisy in promoting the idea that African speech should be suppressed because of "black people" being the problem, which is exactly what this response by the Egyptian government is all about. And according to you suppressing the rights of Africans is fine to the point of even you saying it is fine is seen as legitimate free speech and nobody should call you out on it. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [qb] In the end Egyptians are the stewards of ancient Egypt and its heritage, they are closer geographically, culturally and probably genetically to ancient Egypt than the majority of African Americans. Most African American armchair historians online have not even been to Egypt, they just think that they are some kind of experts on ancient Egypt. They can of course continue their inane babbling online but Egyptians have no obligation to endorse them or welcome them to Egypt if they do not want to. [/qb][/QUOTE]Egypt does not have the rights to suppress anybodies freedom of expression or speech just because they may have views they don't like. And the only problem I see that you support suppressing free speech over is "black people" which is the problem you seem to have with African history. And according to you any African who promotes any ideas about "black people" in history deserves to have their rights and freedoms suppressed, because you don't like the idea of "black people" having a history in certain parts of Africa. Am I misunderstanding this? [/QB][/QUOTE]
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