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[QUOTE]Originally posted by supercar: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Undead: [b]Well, I was never claiming that it "leans" toward supporting god. I was trying to explain that it neither confirms nor denies.[/b][/QUOTE] If my memory serves me correct you said something about science being in favor of god or god(s) of another nature, which is different from the ones in various religious teachings. Your rational for this was that, science maintains that either the religious texts weren't the words of God, or else God was not the same "being" as the one depicted in religious teachings. [QUOTE] by Undead: [b]Just to clarify, I was never stating that an intelligence guiding the universes phenomena was referring to creating humans out of nothing. Darwins writings don't conflict with what I have said at all. (His writings conflict with the Qur'an stating that humans were shaped out of dust (unless you tweak the meaning to mean that all earthly things were dust in space hundreds of billions of years ago; but you knew that already)) I am saying that evolution as well as all the other scientifically developed theorems and observations *could* still have an unseen "guiding hand" behind them. Evolution could have led in billions of directions, but generally it led to something that works for the species while the "normal" unevolved ones died out. To some, this suggests "guidance." [/b][/QUOTE] You claim that evolution and other science theorems *could* still have an unseen "guiding hand" behind them. Well, Darwins evolution theory contradicts what you are claiming. Darwin explains how living cells came from the photosythetic process of algae during the undesirable earth's atmospheric conditions in the absense of oxygen; the algae were intermediary primitive cells bordering between life forms like bacteria, and primitive plants. It was through this photosynthetic process, that oxgen built up slowly in the atmosphere, thereby making evolution of algae cells into single cell bacteria and plants. From there, single cell bacteria slowly evolved into more complex cell organisms and then culminating into higher organisms such as humans over time. According to Darwin, higher organisms like humans, are made up of many cells that still show their ancestral heritage. Indeed he did stress that evolution of organisms occured in many different directions, and only the evolved organisms that were the fittest survived. In the case of apes, they were supposed to have come from small primates, which still exist in one shape of form or another. Some of these apes diverted to becoming gorillas, chimpanzees, etc, while others became hominids such as Homo Errectus, and Homo Sapiens. There is evidence that suggests Homo Errectus existed at the time Homo Sapiens came to being. But since Homo Sapiens were culturally stronger, they either merged with some of these Homo Errectus groups or eliminated them in conflicts as they started "colonizing" the lands of earth. Again, it boiled down to the survival of the fittest. Once again, this contradicts your notion of some "guided hand" in these forces. Basically, what Darwin was getting at, was that given the right conditions and forces, cells or organisms evolve and this has nothing to do with any "guiding hand" from some being(s). For if there was a "guiding hand", there would be no need for evolution of species to take "many" directions, just to end up with "several" desired species. Moreover, the original species would not have to survive any longer. Darwin proves that while this happens in various cases under certain conditions, it doesn't hold true for others. The primates, we are supposed to have evolved from, are still in existence! [QUOTE]by Undead: [b]Let us say that some aliens come in a hundred thousand years and all signs of humanity are gone off the surface. When they start digging they will find cars and buildings first. They will find how cars and buildings "evolved" into better structures while the poorer ones "died out." Only we will know that they didn't evolve, we built the cars better and the buildings better overtime. (unless they find our engineering journals.) I am sure you understand what I am getting at.[/b][/QUOTE] No. I don't know what you are getting at, because if these creatures or aliens are intelligent enough to reach the earth, they will certainly have the mentality to distinguish between life forms and non-living things! [QUOTE]Posted by Undead: [b] We can't see if there is a guide/engineer or not with our limited paraphenalia. Now, I do not know if there is or is not and I do not claim to, and no one knows except for "true believers" <IMG SRC="http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/tongue.gif"> I am just saying that science has not proven if the universe is completely random or guided and it doesn't really attempt to because of the lack of tools. That is why I assumed you had not read the whole thread, because it has already been discussed.[/b][/QUOTE] You keep using as a defensive measure, the unfounded claim that I haven't read the thread. Why then am I refuting you here, if I hadn't gone through the thread? Besides, I don't have to read the "whole" thread to know the findings of science. I have enough knowledge in science, so as to be able to refute a claim when I see one. Nor should I expect to be educated by the claims made on this board. [QUOTE] Posted by Undead: [b]I should add that the same concept of "guided or random" goes for everything that we have observed. Gravity, quarks, photons, etc. could have also been made to act as they do, rather than just being a "natural force." Science does not try to answer that one way or the other, it justs explains the workings of what we can already observe to the details which we can measure. Nothing further[/b][/QUOTE] Once again, I disagree. According to science, there is explanation for the likes of gravity, protons, etc, without the need of a "guiding hand" of some being. Gravity is the product of the earths motion on its axis, which in turn is a product of the molecular behavior of the Earth, imparting the magnetic polarity of the earth's north and south poles. The molecular behavior and polarity ensure that the earth remains on its path of motion, and not divert or stop rotating on its axis. Then comes the distance of the earth from the sun, which creates unique conditions experienced on the earth. This leans far more towards the idea that "natural forces" with no consciousness as the drivering force of phenomena in the universe, rather than some "guiding hand or force" by some being(s). Having said all this, science still doesn't try to prove or disprove God or Gods, because this hasn't been scientifically verified! But science claims to know what [b]isn't[/b] the work of some "divine" force or power. [This message has been edited by supercar (edited 19 July 2004).] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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