Noone knows the sources of information and whether what is recorded was obtained under torture and maybe false. We have all heard tales of bowabs and others being paid to give information about eg foreigners and making it up as they go along. And nobody knows what threats they were under either personally or to their loved ones if and when they 'cooperated'.
Also, various psychology experiments such as Miligram etc show that normal, ordinary, people can be induced to obey authority figures to the detriment of 'victims' and that is still as true today as it was in the original experiments.
I would like to hear TL's views about this actually because of the similar discoveries from the state security (Stasi) at the end of the regime in East Germany.
posted
I also say No for all of the above reasons....but...Ladies, you didn't cast your vote!
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
One of my relatives used to rant and rave about why the Poles stood by and did nothing to help the Jews during the Holocaust until one day a Polish woman friend of mine visited and her parents had lived through that time and told him bluntly "because it was happening to them too".
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
I meant that the SS officers who did the torturing should get a fair trial. Or at least cases against them shouldn't end up being dropped on the basis that they didn't get one.
How many 'happy slapping' videos have come out of officers beating up civilians in these hell holes? If these documents can be rescued they can back up cases against the officers who tortured the people. Victims should be encouraged to come forward and these officers should be made examples of so that in future the police think 1,000 times before resorting to these kind of tactics.
That's if the powers that be really are in support of change which I'm not convinced of. Not yet.
I agree about the Polish. It's one thing to give a false statement because you are frightened, maybe in fear of your life. It's another to wilfully beat the crap out of someone until they tell you what you want to hear.
Laura Member # 879
posted
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: How many 'happy slapping' videos have come out of officers beating up civilians in these hell holes?
Too many I am sure, and you worded that nicely Monkey, brutal rapes came to my mind. I can't imagine anyone who suffered any of this would want that horrendous stuff posted all over the internet. They should at least have the right to approve or reject it first!
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
How about beating the crap out of someone because you are in fear of your family's life if you don't? It's one thing for an individual to take the choice that they would rather die than obey this kind of order, but if they have a gun or worse to your wife/mother/child's head - then what? We probably all know what we THINK we would do, but until it happens for real, we don't know.
We know from history that normal people can be induced to carry out vile acts of brutality against others under the 'right' circumstances.
"Our planned two-week investigation into the psychology of prison life had to be ended prematurely after only six days because of what the situation was doing to the college students who participated. In only a few days, our guards became sadistic"
There do need to be fair and careful trials with highly experienced - probably international - judges and publishing the documents online will make it virtually impossible to hold these because of all the emotions that will be swimming around.
See how the media can really twist and stir things - eg there was a case of a young girl went missing in the UK that made the headlines day in day out. A body of another young girl was found and the headline was 'It's not Gill' (or whatever her name was) - seeming irrelevant that it was another young girl who had been killed that they had found, just not the one they had 'puffed up'.
Laura Member # 879
posted
What about the other types of documents, one's like we have recently seen, regarding political figures, and paybacks, corruption, etc. I still say no to all of that too, I think that needs to be handed over to proper officials and let them release their findings first, not just put them up on facebook pages like what is happening now.
Ayisha Member # 4713
posted
No for all the above reasons. I voted.
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
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No to all of them. Regarding financial documentation - picking your way through that can be a misleading nightmare and needs properly qualified and experienced accountants or whoever. See how many times even experienced auditors have had the wool pulled over their eyes eg in the global banking crisis! Who just seeing a handful of scanned documents on FB can really understand the machinations beneath them?
(And how many innocent links in the chain who didn't understand what was going on - office clerks and the like - would unfairly undergo 'trial by media'?)
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
There definitely wasn't a gun being held to the officers' heads in the videos I saw. It was literally slapping, but on the back of the neck, repeatedly, as hard as possible. And in another one beating little kids in turn. These guys were blatantly getting off on the power trip - getting someone to film it on their phone too, for crying out loud. There were other officers standing there - sure they did nothing to stop it, but they weren't egging them on either.
Where an officer has been ordered to torture someone, if it's the case of a low ranking officer taking an order from a superior maybe there is an "I was only obeying orders" argument. But if I really don't want to do something be damned I'd spend the next 20 years doing it. Getting my mates to film it on their mobiles as a momento.
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
I'm not saying that these people did it without enjoying it, or under threat - and probably most of them did, but the point is we don't know! We don't know, for example, if behind the camera, someone didn't have a gun to their mother's head.
This is why it has to be done under formal proceedings and not trial by media or trial by what can fit on a mobile phone camera screen.
"Obeying orders" has not been an acceptable defence in war crimes trials since Nuremberg but again, easier said than done if you are the underling.
This is why I am totally for the 'Truth and Reconciliation' approach when the people who were there, whether on the 'good' or the 'bad' side come forward and give the facts as they believed them to be at the time.
I posted this as an edit further up, but I'll do it here again:
We know from history that normal people can be induced to carry out vile acts of brutality against others under the 'right' circumstances.
"Our planned two-week investigation into the psychology of prison life had to be ended prematurely after only six days because of what the situation was doing to the college students who participated. In only a few days, our guards became sadistic"
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
I agree.
As for the media thing, it seems to have gone nuts here. There was a time when a crime was reported you didn't know who the defendant was unless they were found guilty. Now we all know their name, age, home address, vital statistics, what they had for breakfast in the morning in question. Social media is great when it comes to a revolution, but where it comes to the right to a fair trial, not so much.
@ Shanta, re: the edit... scary reading...
Laura Member # 879
posted
To me, it's just a little to scary to think that ordinary citizens off the street may possibly be in possession of top secret documents. Who really knows what was in all of those buildings and what was taken out by the demonstrators.
Monkey Member # 17287
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Is this stuff finding its way onto the internet then?
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
There's a very good account in Ranulph Fiennes book The Secret Hunters (which is labelled as fiction but is based in a large part on some old log books he found in an abandoned hut in Antarctica) on how normal, decent, family men in Nazi Germany were induced to carry out brutal and violent acts against their fellow humans.
And exactly, re the media. Remember how a paediatrician in Wales got beaten up because the thickos didn't know the difference between paediatrician and paedophile.
Ayisha Member # 4713
posted
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Gdeeda:
This is why it has to be done under formal proceedings and not trial by media or trial by what can fit on a mobile phone camera screen.
fully agree, I think we have all seen enough of what the media and amateur video can 'create' in false 'facts'
Laura Member # 879
posted
Im following this page on it, some is hard to understand.
anegyptian RT @AMOUCH1: First Chock from Egyptes Secret Archives #amndawla : Mubaraks Son was behind terrorist killing of 88 tourists in 2005: Souss.nl - Kinderen Mubarak pleegden aanslag op toeristen - souss.nl
edited to add, I guess me reposting that here also makes me guilty...EEEEEK! *Slaps my hands*
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
There was this old Polish guy I knew. Everyone liked him - really sweet guy, quite a character. Kept running away from his nursing home and turning up in Italy!
He'd written a book about his experiences in the war - he'd escaped from German and Russian concentration camps. After he died I got hold of a copy.
I had to stop half way because it was just too much. I couldn't believe they were one and the same person. I don't think he was a bad guy before the war started and didn't appear to be afterwards, but some of the things he did during, initially by necessity but later out of choice...
Good point Shanta.
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
I'm not clear about what you just posted Laura! It doesn't sound true to me, but has it said somewhere it is or isn't?
Monkey Member # 17287
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@ Laura - definitely don't think that's a smart move. For a start, if you print all that stuff you're giving anyone you later want to take retributions against forewarning. Forewarned = forearmed.
Laura Member # 879
posted
quote:Originally posted by Shanta Gdeeda: I'm not clear about what you just posted Laura! It doesn't sound true to me, but has it said somewhere it is or isn't?
it's a link to this page Shanta, but I don't know what language this is to translate it.
and NO, I'm against publishing anything on the net because of all of the above, but also because it is conceivable that some of the material may impact on national security. I don't know what was found, but part of the remit State Security (Amn el-Dawla) is just that, state security.
As for the clips on the net, of course they are very disturbing and sadistic, but again as Shanta said, we don't know the context of the incidents. My understanding is that they were taken in regular police stations and not in State Security. Also in many instances the victims appear to be criminals or suspects. I have to stress though that this is a subjective impression. It is routine in dealing with criminals to beat them to get them to confess to a crime that they have actually done (not one they haven't). If you're daughter/sister/wife, etc. was raped, I'm sure you'd want to do that and more to the perpetrator. Again, not suggesting that this is the case in any of the clips, just stressing the point that we just do not know the context.
metinoot Member # 17031
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I agree with Shanta!
and NO, I'm against publishing anything on the net because of all of the above, but also because it is conceivable that some of the material may impact on national security. I don't know what was found, but part of the remit State Security (Amn el-Dawla) is just that, state security.
As for the clips on the net, of course they are very disturbing and sadistic, but again as Shanta said, we don't know the context of the incidents. My understanding is that they were taken in regular police stations and not in State Security. Also in many instances the victims appear to be criminals or suspects. I have to stress though that this is a subjective impression. It is routine in dealing with criminals to beat them to get them to confess to a crime that they have actually done (not one they haven't). If you're daughter/sister/wife, etc. was raped, I'm sure you'd want to do that and more to the perpetrator. Again, not suggesting that this is the case in any of the clips, just stressing the point that we just do not know the context.
May I stress "Innocent until proven guilty".
And there is international agreements that suspects in custody are treated fairly and not beaten to confess.
Why should Egypt ignore commonly agreed upon and followed human rights protocol?
Taking the rare instance in which an Egyptian woman or her family would file a criminal complaint of rape or sexual battery when most of the complaints filed with police is either business related "swindle, fraud, theft" or traffic accident.
Rape, sexual assault is rarely reported to the police, families on their own settle that sort of thing due to shame.
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
Deleted my reply and moved it to this thread:
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: Also in many instances the victims appear to be criminals or suspects. I have to stress though that this is a subjective impression. It is routine in dealing with criminals to beat them to get them to confess to a crime that they have actually done (not one they haven't). If you're daughter/sister/wife, etc. was raped, I'm sure you'd want to do that and more to the perpetrator. Again, not suggesting that this is the case in any of the clips, just stressing the point that we just do not know the context.
The problem there is that if you take a confession by force, maybe you're forcing a person to confess to something they didn't actually do whilst the guilty one, who isn't a suspect, walks free. You can't justify police brutality, surely? Even if the police were all straight, but when they're bent as a ten bob note - look what happened to Khaled Saeed.
Ayisha Member # 4713
posted
quote:Originally posted by metinoot:
quote:Originally posted by Ramses nemesis: I agree with Shanta!
and NO, I'm against publishing anything on the net because of all of the above, but also because it is conceivable that some of the material may impact on national security. I don't know what was found, but part of the remit State Security (Amn el-Dawla) is just that, state security.
As for the clips on the net, of course they are very disturbing and sadistic, but again as Shanta said, we don't know the context of the incidents. My understanding is that they were taken in regular police stations and not in State Security. Also in many instances the victims appear to be criminals or suspects. I have to stress though that this is a subjective impression. It is routine in dealing with criminals to beat them to get them to confess to a crime that they have actually done (not one they haven't). If you're daughter/sister/wife, etc. was raped, I'm sure you'd want to do that and more to the perpetrator. Again, not suggesting that this is the case in any of the clips, just stressing the point that we just do not know the context.
May I stress "Innocent until proven guilty".
And there is international agreements that suspects in custody are treated fairly and not beaten to confess.
Why should Egypt ignore commonly agreed upon and followed human rights protocol?
Taking the rare instance in which an Egyptian woman or her family would file a criminal complaint of rape or sexual battery when most of the complaints filed with police is either business related "swindle, fraud, theft" or traffic accident.
Rape, sexual assault is rarely reported to the police, families on their own settle that sort of thing due to shame.
It may have escaped your notice but they have not followed agreed upon human rights protocol up to now in reality, whatever they may have signed.
Ayisha Member # 4713
posted
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: but when they're bent as a ten bob note
Nine bob note Monkey, ten bob note was real
ok well before your time.
Chef Mick Member # 11209
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: but when they're bent as a ten bob note
Nine bob note Monkey, ten bob note was real
ok well before your time.
ok ok grannie
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
I remember those - pink colour If you got one for your birthday off your granny, you were rich beyond the dreams of avarice
(That translates to about 5LE or <$1)
Having put it into Egyptian money - actually it does sound quite a lot! I have the same emotional reaction to 5LE note as I do to a £5 note.
ourluxor Member # 15101
posted
I used to pay my own wages in ten bob notes 'cause it seemed like lots more money!
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Monkey: but when they're bent as a ten bob note
Nine bob note Monkey, ten bob note was real
ok well before your time.
Ah right. Just testing
Shanta Gdeeda Member # 9889
posted
The army is sending out texts asking people who have got any of these documents to hand them in.
Monkey Member # 17287
posted
Ten bob notes? Oh, you guys are being mean. It's not nice to mock the afflicted
You can believe now I drove straight past work and started driving home again without the actual getting out and working bit in between... I was so happy for a few minutes there...
EDIT: Oh, I get it Shanta, you mean hand SS documents in not ten bob notes I'm on fire tonight...
Exiiled Member # 17278
posted
I believe in transparency, and given the emotional level, Egyptians deserve immediate transparency. I believe the SS documents should be posted online with the middle and last names of those mentioned in the documents blacked out. I also believe in a fair trail and that can happen tomorrow or 3 years from now. As for leaking sensitive state material, how sensitive could it be towards torturous state? Kilab-al-Dowla primary function was regime protection from Egyptian citizens. Let's keep this fact front and center. It will do Egypt, Egyptians and the world good to know of the atrocities that were committed by the Mubarak regime.
This is my opinion. Ultimately it is the choice of Egyptians who made the revolution happen. And whatever they decide I am okwiththat. They are the ones writing their own history.
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