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T O P I C     R E V I E W
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
This is the first time i am even attempting to communicate with other on the net about a certain topic, however i feel i need advice from people who possibly know a bit more about Egypt than people where i am from (south africa).
I met an Egyptian guy through my half-sister who lived in Cairo at the time, my father was egyptian, my mom south african, i have no contact with my dad's side of the family, because he never returned to Egypt once he left... Anyway to shorten the long story, i have met someone and we intend to marry , but my mother is terrified for me, he has a decent job and earns a reasonable salary (for Egypt).. i have never been to Egypt myself , and my mother is asking me how can i go backwards in life, because my father left Egypt for a better life, not for me to throw all that away and go back there, and now i live with all the comfort and ease that i wish for, what will come of me if i move to Egypt... she says i will be living life of taking public transport from point A - B, and everyone lives in flats and there are few -no houses with big gardens etc like in South Africa.. i care about him and part of me feels that leaving him for material reasons is wrong, and petty, coz God can take this material stuff from me even if i stay here. besides, i could find a guy here that will be able to give me the life my mother envisions for me, but will he treat me right? there are so many other reasons to consider when choosing the person you want to marry..
 
Ayisha
Member # 4713
 - posted
Welcome to spamegypt safyy. [Big Grin]

First I agree with your mum on the point about going backwards in life, BUT it wasn't YOU that left Egypt but your dad, so for YOU it's going forwards.

I know enough about South Africa to know you will have a totally different and harder life here in Egypt than you do where you are, but if you love him you have to at least give it a go, maybe in time you can take him back to SA with you if you find life here unbearable.

Mums are always terrified for their kids wanting something out of the norm, so don't worry about that. She's your mum and that's her job and she will be there for you if you need her to be, she will also give the 'I told you so' speech if it all turns to crap.

Yes most people live in flats, not the plush spacious housing you are used to, it's hot, it's dusty and it's manic in Cairo, but it's ALIVE. It's not everyone's cuppa but how will you know until you at least visit?

Come for a visit, see the huge difference between north Africa and south Africa, and no lions here, only camels and donkeys [Big Grin] and bring mum with you so she can see for herself.

Good luck.
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Thank you so much for your response :-)

Totally different i can handle, but when you say 'harder' i am suddenly scared. i wish there was a way to bring him here, but he is an accountant, and how will he find work in his field, here..? theres the language barrier.. and i dont want him to leave a stable job in Egypt to come here and sell oil perfumes or scarves like every other Egyptian trying to make it here, even though that might make more money than what he is earning in Egypt as an accountant.. and theres a certain reliability in a man that has a 9-5 job, there's stability ... and he will move here if that was the only way, but he says jobs in Egypt are so difficult to come by and if he leaves it and things dont work out for us elsewhere then he comes back to Egypt and has Nothing...

lol, God knows im dreading that 'i told you so' speach...

Is Alex any less manic??

I am planning to visit in a few months, not sure if bringing mum would be such a good idea, she would be huffing n puffing n complaining from the moment the plain lands i can imagine the "i told you so's " starting right there.. but then going with friends is probably not such a good idea either coz he feels that that would be the best time for me to meet his parents n family, n i dont want to create the impression that i am a typical indecent western girl, because its so easy for me to hop on a plane to go meet a guys family...
 
Monkey
Member # 17287
 - posted
Definitely go there and see for yourself. I had complete culture shock in Egypt when I went back - I'm quite well travelled but that time just freaked me out. If someone had said to me "welcome to your new home" I'd have died. This was in Alexandria - not to say there's anything wrong with it there, a lot of expats love it - it just wasn't for me. I've never lived in a city before. It made me feel claustrophobic.

Weirdly though I actually really liked Cairo. Don't ask me why.

I've been back four times since then, and found areas I like and yes maybe I could live there, but if someone had suggested it that first time I would have on the 1st flight back. What's the hurry here? Relax. It's an important decision - only fools rush in.

As for the money thing, you know you're right on that one, but money only matters when you don't have any, and when you don't have any, you might find that it matters quite a lot.

How old are you? Mum's are protective no matter how old but I get the impression you're pretty young. My advice would be go to Egypt, see it for yourself, slow down, take your time, and, ultimately, do what you want to do. You have to make your own choices in life - it's you who has to live with the consequences.
 
Ayisha
Member # 4713
 - posted
Alex is lovely!! Not as manic as Cairo by any means.

Just come, whoever you come with just come and see for yourself.

I say harder because if you are a typical SA girl you will probably have had the 'silver spoon' life, you wont get that here. I don't mean to be offensive. Life in SA is very different to here, possibly a lot less dangerous than where you are now though!

Alex is lovely, Egyptians are lovely and no lions, what more could you need [Big Grin]
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Thanks Monkey , and you're very right, i have to make my own choices , i wouldnt wanna live my life with the consequences of others' choices.

im 25 now, perhaps i seem young coz ive lived a very sheltered life and and dont have that much experience, but you're right i dont want to rush into anything here, and i guess we have about 2 years give or take ... so i should take my time in deciding , perhaps doors will open in this time, and i know he will be in a better financial standing by then..

lol, n maybe its gonna take more than one visit there to adjust and see how id manage there...
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Ayisha, no offence taken i actually really appreciate your frankness, coz the last thing i need is to have things sugar coated lol.
Life here is very different from what ive heard about life there, it seems like every experience is totally different.. are you married ?? or can you tell me a bit about what daily life is like there, be it in Alex or Cairo... or Tanta, thats where his family is from... it seems like its not as city-like as Alex or Cairo...

Yip, SA may look lovely in pics and it may be relatively easy to work towards things that make for a better life, but boy is it just as easy for robbers , hijackers, burglars and the like to snatch it all out from under you in a heartbeat. lol. and the way the stats look, it seems its only a matter of time before every southafrican is a victim of some sort of crime. thank God we haven't had any tragic experiences.
 
citizen
Member # 1344
 - posted
Safyy, you are young but old enough not only to make your own choices, but also to look after yourself and plan for your own future. Don't expect a man to 'give you a life' as you say in your first post. To have a good life in Egypt, you will have to work very hard alongside your partner. It's easy to be poor when it's just you and him, it's even fun and romantic and you need nothing but your love. Once children appear on the scene EVERYTHING changes, you need money to educate them, to afford medical treatment, to afford leisure and travel. That's when love can disappear fast if you find the standards you are able to give your children are lower than the ones you received as a child (against human nature IMHO).

So, come to Egypt, live independently in a flat, get a job, get to know the culture, society the family you'll be marrying in to. Take your time... within a year you will probably know if there is a future for you or not.
 
Ayisha
Member # 4713
 - posted
I am married Safyy but I live down the arse end in Luxor, the hot bit. It's a different planet to Alex or Cairo, but I have visited both. To live, I would move to Alex tomorrow! They have real weather! Rain! not a lot but certainly more than Luxor's annual 10 minutes worth. Alex is also more 'European' I found. Not that it's full of Europeans, but it's on the Med if you know what I mean.

The first time I ever came to Egypt, as Monkey said, the culture shock was massive, scared me to death but after about a year I wanted to come back, it's got easier. I did come many times before I moved but that was circumstances, I have learned more in the 4 years living here than in the 6 years prior as a visitor though.

If you can get past the 6 month 'get me out of here I want to go home and never set foot in this place again' mindset then you're fine, although you do still have those 'i hate this place' moments but you have more 'i know why I'm here' moments to replace them.

It's an experience, as citizen says come for a year and find your feet, get to know him and his family, family is a BIG thing in Egypt and families are BIG. There are many expats on this forum living in Egypt, especially Cairo, so there are people to meet and discuss with. All of us living here have different experiences though and if there wasn't a million pages full of spam you could read a few different ones.

Most people once they've been they will always return [Big Grin] Once you drink from the Nile water that's it, you're hooked [Big Grin] 'tis a fair magical place.
 
Shanta Gdeeda
Member # 9889
 - posted
@Safyy - I have lived here independently for over 3.5 years and I have never had the 'get me out of here' experience [Smile] I visited Cairo about 5 times for 1 to 2 weeks before deciding to move here, and having made the decision actually moved about a year later, finishing up work etc in the UK.

From observing those around me, including westerners married to Egyptians, I do know that you cannot possibly understand the pull of 'family' here unless you live here (though if your father was Egyptian, maybe you have learnt some of that from him).

Unless you have a very rare man there, as wife you will NOT necessarily be top of his priorities, mother will be. The round of family obligations may be almost incomprehensible to you and become extremely wearing if you are not of that frame of mind. It extends not just to immediate family but to cousins and cousins of cousins.

Also, forget the concept of 'personal space' if you are living in a family - it doesn't happen and they seem to find it bewildering that someone would prefer to be alone for a while than surrounded by well-meaning, loving, incredibly noisy family members!

Something else you may find difficult - and I'm just going off what I know from South Africans I've worked with over the years - is the sheer quantity of rituals associated with being polite to people - for example you never get straight down to the point in a meeting, there is always half an hour of 'pleasantries' eg how is your grandfather now? to be got through first before you can ever get round to it which those of us with more 'northern' tendencies tend to find incredibly frustrating.
A friend of mine was visiting one evening when I received a call from a British friend. I said to her "can I call you back later, I've got a visitor" (perfectly acceptable between Brits) and the visitor friend said "I am so jealous that you Brits can do that - it would just be considered so rude for an Egyptian or Arab to do that, there would have to be half an hour of social pleasantries' - so whereas to a Brit taking a long phone call in front of a visitor is considered rather rude, to an Egyptian making a quick response to a phone call is considered more rude!
You do have to undergo attitude adjustment. If you are using a public toilet then it is considered polite in Egypt to hammer on the door to see if the cubicle is vacant - this is a shock to the system because people will stand in a queue for hours in loos in the UK with a row of shut doors rather than try them to see if there's anyone in there (and I've known it happen for the whole row to be empty because the cleaner closed all the doors when she'd finished!)

With regards to personal safety, of course bad stuff happens anywhere, but on the whole you will almost certainly be a lot safer here than in SA.

Luxury? What does that mean to you - not your mother? Some see luxury purely in terms of quantity of material goods, others in terms of whether you have time to smell the flowers or not.

Citizen is right though, contrary to popular belief, many people here work extremely hard long hours and depending on his job, you may rarely see your husband.
 
Dalia*
Member # 10593
 - posted
quote:
Originally posted by citizen:

Safyy, you are young but old enough not only to make your own choices, but also to look after yourself and plan for your own future. Don't expect a man to 'give you a life' as you say in your first post.

Exactly.

If living in a spacious house with a garden, inside a gated compound etc. are a priority for me, then I know I'll have to work hard in order to be able to afford it. The idea that some man should miraculously appear out of the blue and pay for those things seems very odd to me.
 
Sashyra8
Member # 14488
 - posted
quote:
Originally posted by Shanta Gdeeda:
@Safyy - I have lived here independently for over 3.5 years and I have never had the 'get me out of here' experience [Smile] I visited Cairo about 5 times for 1 to 2 weeks before deciding to move here, and having made the decision actually moved about a year later, finishing up work etc in the UK.

From observing those around me, including westerners married to Egyptians, I do know that you cannot possibly understand the pull of 'family' here unless you live here (though if your father was Egyptian, maybe you have learnt some of that from him).

Unless you have a very rare man there, as wife you will NOT necessarily be top of his priorities, mother will be. The round of family obligations may be almost incomprehensible to you and become extremely wearing if you are not of that frame of mind. It extends not just to immediate family but to cousins and cousins of cousins.

Also, forget the concept of 'personal space' if you are living in a family - it doesn't happen and they seem to find it bewildering that someone would prefer to be alone for a while than surrounded by well-meaning, loving, incredibly noisy family members!

Something else you may find difficult - and I'm just going off what I know from South Africans I've worked with over the years - is the sheer quantity of rituals associated with being polite to people - for example you never get straight down to the point in a meeting, there is always half an hour of 'pleasantries' eg how is your grandfather now? to be got through first before you can ever get round to it which those of us with more 'northern' tendencies tend to find incredibly frustrating.
A friend of mine was visiting one evening when I received a call from a British friend. I said to her "can I call you back later, I've got a visitor" (perfectly acceptable between Brits) and the visitor friend said "I am so jealous that you Brits can do that - it would just be considered so rude for an Egyptian or Arab to do that, there would have to be half an hour of social pleasantries' - so whereas to a Brit taking a long phone call in front of a visitor is considered rather rude, to an Egyptian making a quick response to a phone call is considered more rude!
You do have to undergo attitude adjustment. If you are using a public toilet then it is considered polite in Egypt to hammer on the door to see if the cubicle is vacant - this is a shock to the system because people will stand in a queue for hours in loos in the UK with a row of shut doors rather than try them to see if there's anyone in there (and I've known it happen for the whole row to be empty because the cleaner closed all the doors when she'd finished!)

With regards to personal safety, of course bad stuff happens anywhere, but on the whole you will almost certainly be a lot safer here than in SA.

Luxury? What does that mean to you - not your mother? Some see luxury purely in terms of quantity of material goods, others in terms of whether you have time to smell the flowers or not.

Citizen is right though, contrary to popular belief, many people here work extremely hard long hours and depending on his job, you may rarely see your husband.

Excellent post,Shanta [Smile]
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Thanks Citizen, i have actually thought of working in Egypt.... but i figured it was just shooting off a lost arrow coz ive heared about how difficult it is to find a job there (and to add to that my Arabic is just about enough to get by on the street, far from professional) , I have a university degree and have a reasonable amount of working experience, but i will look into it and see if there is actually any hope in me finding a job in Egypt, how will i know if i don’t try.. i don’t expect a man to ‘give me a life’ lol, those are my mothers concerns, and i do understand where she is coming from, the financial standing of a man does affect the life ‘he and i’ will live – even if i work and contribute as well.

Yes , im sure love can disappear very quickly when you facing problems at every turn, and better still the childhood i had must be completely different to what he had, so when he is feeling satisfied with how they are being raised – I may be thinking “Oh my God my kids are living a life of poverty” , so if i need to work, and hopefully that’s possible, i would do so to better the situation. Lol, i guess some would find it romantic and & fun to be poor and in love, lol, but that love and fresh air story is just so so short lived.. and unrealistic, lol,when reality kicks in they’ll be having all the concerns im having now.... [Smile]


Ayisha, lol, im gonna try to put Luxor down as a ‘visit ONLY’ place  So you visited and came back a year later? Assuming your husband is Egyptian and you’re from a more western country ? (if its too personal , don’t answer... Just trying to get to know more about others’ transitions , coz even though my father was Egyptian – my life obviously couldn’t have been as typical Egyptian family life would be, coz my mom isn’t and we are out of Egypt.. so i have the fears of fitting in as much as any other western girl would..) ..... and i guess thats what life is about in any place – having more positive moments than negative ones, you sound very well adjusted..

I personally have no problem at all coming to live there for a year or even a few months , and get to know him and how he is in relation to his family, because of the safety...compared to SA, but he finds that amusing right now, me living on my own in Egypt, why i don’t know... is it seen as somewhat indecent to be living on your own as a young girl there???? Im sure every family is a bit different , but if its generally frowned upon then i guess there goes that option... Here in SA conservative families like mine consider that indecent, they feel you should leave home –when you’re getting married... leaving before that with no very good reason is like you want freedom to do things you cant do in your parents house.


@Shanta Gdeeda, you visited 5x before moving there, so that must have helped in not experiencing the ‘get me out of here’ thing, , so me just rocking up there to live is noting short of jumping into the deep end, i definitely have to visit... lol –confirmed!

[Smile] i can only imagine what a big deal family is there, coz even though my father was not in Egypt, i think our house was like some kinda hot spot for just about every Egyptian in SA, or so it seemed to me [Smile] and what you’re describing is most certainly going to be new to me, coz i am an only child here and im very used to my own space :-/ haha thats amusing in itself that they would find it bewildering that one would like personal space...

[Smile] oH I’m familiar with the pleasantries taking up 2/3rd’s of the conversation time, lol my mother always complained that my father didn’t know how to make a short phone call even in an emergency [Smile]

LUXURY : To me... luxury is contentment – which could vary from person to person i guess. Probably different to my mothers... and maybe to me its not so much material things, because i already have that now... but i was born n bred here in SA where luxury is meeting societies standard of a comfortable life... but im not as materialistic as others.. im just scared that ive probably become so accustomed to the comfortable life being a norm here, that i may only realise the extent of it once i don’t have it ?!
well clearly to my mother Luxury and Happiness = a life that is made comfy and convenient by material things, a decent car, a house , enough money to go shopping whenever you want to... She values what she’s worked for , because she worked so very hard to reach that point. As a result i hardly spent any time with her growing up, and the time that was spent wasn’t exactly quality time as such, spent more time with my father and as you put it, lets say my father was a time to smell the flowers kinda person while my mother was the opposite. N she always complained about his and all other Egyptian peoples mentality, she called it ‘live for today mentality’ lol, she couldn’t get her head around WHY they find relationships with other people more important than their own lives almost, like he would lose sleep just to sit n drink tea n talk to friends till all hours of the night. That ...to her –Bewildering, lol.  think she’s getting to see the importance of that as she gets older though...
As for not seeing him, at the moment with this job he works from 9am -6pm and a bit later here n there, so thats ok i guess... thats about the hours people work here too. Thanks for your reply and ive gone and replied with an even longer one [Smile]
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Hi Dalia [Smile] i am not looking for some guy to miraculously come along and provide for me all i have in my parents home, i have a college degree and have no problem whatsoever putting that to use in the workplace... its just that my mother has these concerns and seems she had my life planned out in her head already, although my father was Egyptian i know she would prefer i met someone from here (purely for materialistic reasons i might add, because she has no problem with this guy other than that he is from Egypt). Anyway bottom line is, i would work for what i need/want be it here in SA or in Egypt.
 
Ayisha
Member # 4713
 - posted
quote:
Originally posted by Safyy:

Ayisha, lol, im gonna try to put Luxor down as a ‘visit ONLY’ place So you visited and came back a year later? Assuming your husband is Egyptian and you’re from a more western country ? (if its too personal , don’t answer... Just trying to get to know more about others’ transitions , coz even though my father was Egyptian – my life obviously couldn’t have been as typical Egyptian family life would be, coz my mom isn’t and we are out of Egypt.. so i have the fears of fitting in as much as any other western girl would..) ..... and i guess thats what life is about in any place – having more positive moments than negative ones, you sound very well adjusted..

I visited the first time and was hit with massive culture shock. I am from UK and the only places I had been outside of there were other European countries. Although there was the shock I knew when I got back to UK that I would return to Egypt. It was only Cairo I had visited then. The second visit we (female friend) stayed in Cairo and did a 2 day trip to Luxor to see the Luxor sites. I was hooked by this time, so was my friend, so we came again and by this time I was looking into moving to Cairo. In 2004 We visited Abu Simbel and stayed over in Luxor a couple of nights and that's when I met my husband, so that's how I ended up in the arse end hot as hell part. [Big Grin] It was about another 10+ trips and 3 years till I finally sold up and moved here.

The "I wanna get out of here" possibly only happens to some in Luxor and it's normally around 6 months time. The heat in summer is too much and the whole mentality here is totally different to Cairo or Alex.

The living alone is confusing to most Egyptians as they think it's odd, I think Shanta's post said it very well. To me, if I'm sick I want to be left alone, to an Egyptian when someone is sick the entire neighbourhood has to visit. [Wink] But there are many here who do live alone so don't worry about that. If you can have a smidgen of privacy here you're lucky though. [Big Grin]

I do have moans, I do have times I hate it and times I love it, but I wouldn't go back to live in UK. [Big Grin]
 
Laura
Member # 879
 - posted
Are you the same Safyy that posted this?

http://www.expatfocus.com/index.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=30390
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
@ Ayisha .... i guess i have to see it and feel it all for myself then.... so if all goes well, i'll be planning a trip to egypt before the end of this year... i think there are a few similarities between the UK and SA, but not the weather, lol, you moved from one extreme to the other, lol.. none the less, overall... you sound happy... n thats what its all about really! [Smile]
 
Safyy
Member # 18963
 - posted
Hi laura, no that isn't me, but i followed the link and there are some recruitment links on there so thanks anyways [Smile]
 
Cheekyferret
Member # 15263
 - posted
Saffy, I first came here when I was in my teens, prior to that I was living in Bahrain and tbh, I went from 'luxury' to Cairo and the material stuff was irrelevant as there are things here that are luxureous that in other countries are difficult to find. Having my ironing done for loose change, using a driver for way less than the cost of taxis, going to a 5* pool for 75le!!!

Naturally, most things are relative to the individual.

18 years on, (with much travelling inbetween) I am back again to live... I find it very easy to live here, work for foreigners is immense and tbh, I have my own luxuries... the heat doesn't bother me and the culture is so easy to understand (compared to other countries I have lived in) and overall, this is one chilled out place.

Try it, fly up for a week... I think Egypt is like Marmite, you either love it or hate it.... (stupid saying as I think it is alright [Wink] )
 
An Exercise in Futility
Member # 9889
 - posted
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