In Egypt a marriage contract stupulates the alimony a wife will get. So if this sum were sufficiently high I can imagine a stalemate going on. Although I would expect that her father would force the husband to pay up. Especailly as they are all probably part of the same family.

Just goes to show how important it is to get the marriage contract right when you marry an Egyptian.

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Originally posted by Shams:
if he can't afford the nafa 'a he leaves.
if they divorce, he leaves.
the apartment is the right of the wife in Egypt

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Originally posted by akshar:
I have no personal experience of this situation arising but can understand that it might occur.

In Egypt a marriage contract stupulates the alimony a wife will get. So if this sum were sufficiently high I can imagine a stalemate going on. Although I would expect that her father would force the husband to pay up. Especailly as they are all probably part of the same family.

Just goes to show how important it is to get the marriage contract right when you marry an Egyptian.

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If she was seperated but not divorced she would go to her family home.

He does not have to be divorced to take another wife. A muslim can have up to 4 quite legally.

The other reason for her still being there and him saying it is because he can't afford to divroce her is because he is lying through his teeth and has no intentions of divorcing and this is just something he is telling you to keep you happy.

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Originally posted by akshar:
The children belong to him. she only has temporary custody while they are young.

If she was seperated but not divorced she would go to her family home.

He does not have to be divorced to take another wife. A muslim can have up to 4 quite legally.

The other reason for her still being there and him saying it is because he can't afford to divroce her is because he is lying through his teeth and has no intentions of divorcing and this is just something he is telling you to keep you happy.

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Originally posted by azizah:
Jane,
how can he legaly marry again I thought it is not recognized as legal in Europe if he is not divorced and it is not legal in Egypt because it is Orfi, or is there another type of marriage I don´t know about and if so, how is this procedure and where is it held??? Thanks so much for your help I realy appreciate it.

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The marriage of a second wife is not recognised in Europe but can still be done at the Ministry of Justice. I know a lady been married at the Ministry 13 years ago but she is a second wife so her marital status in UK is not married. She went to the embassy and all that stuff but at the end of the day her status is legally married in Egypt but not outside.

Going to the embassy for a foreign woman establishes your eligibility but not his. the embassy doesn't ask him about his status. At the Ministry of Justice they might ask him if he is eligible And of course he is still eligibile because he can have 4 wives.

Really your options are:-
1) He divorces and you get properly married and by this I mean a marriage recognised in both Egypt and your own country. As you say without his divorce there can be no such marriage.

2) You accept to be his second wife and you marry him ORFI, which if stamped by the court will be a legal marriage in Egypt but with no proper rights for you or your future children. He is unlikely to be able to travel to your own country this way.

Why should Egyptian men be any different, especially when they are legally allowed 4 wives.

European wives tend to go home when they are disappointed or disallusioned - the Egyptian wife will still be there to tend his needs when he is old and incapable.

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Originally posted by Penny:
Dear azizah:

Really your options are:-
1) He divorces and you get properly married and by this I mean a marriage recognised in both Egypt and your own country. As you say without his divorce there can be no such marriage.

2) You accept to be his second wife and you marry him ORFI, which if stamped by the court will be a legal marriage in Egypt but with no proper rights for you or your future children. He is unlikely to be able to travel to your own country this way.

Are you sure he is not lying to you if his wife and children remain in his home. Seems a bit odd.

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Penny the lady I spoke about is a second wife and married at the Ministry of Justice. she has been married 13 years. she told the story on TNT of how she went to the embassy and the British Consul tried to persuade her not to get married, the wedding at the mnistry of justice etc etc etc. So you can have a Cairo marriage Embassy, ministry of justice etc but it is not recognised outside because it is polygamous. I guess countries that allow polygamy would recognise it but certainly not the UK where she came from.

Just when you think you have understood it all it gets more complicated... so that makes 4 different types of marriages so far then:-

1)The full thing with embassy approval at the ministry etc.
2)The ministry without embassy approval
3) ORFI approved by the court.
4) ORFI just in a lawyers office

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Originally posted by Penny:
Hi Jane

Just when you think you have understood it all it gets more complicated... so that makes 4 different types of marriages so far then:-

1)The full thing with embassy approval at the ministry etc.
2)The ministry without embassy approval
3) ORFI approved by the court.
4) ORFI just in a lawyers office

Can anybody add anymore? what a system!!

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I know it is so bizare isn't it. BTW no 2 did have Embassy approval becasue that was the statury declaration that the woman was free to marry. It just doesn't have UK Government approval because it is a polgamous narriage.

Also I was told by a Muslim to stop calling mine Orfi as it is an Islamic marriage because it had the male witness, there was a dowry, the intention was to be permanent and it was publically acknowledged.

So my list so far is for a foreigner only

1) Marriage at Ministry of Justice monogomous, valid in and outside Egypt Repectable and Islamic
2) Marriage at Ministry of Justice ploygamous valid in Egypt and other countries that accept polygamous unions Repectable and Islamic
3) Marriage registered in local marriage court monogomous/polygamous valid in Egypt but not outside Repectable and Islamic
4) Marriage in lawyers office (Orfi) unregistered only known about by the parties concerned monogomous/polyogomous valid in Egypt for certain purposes only Not respectable and not Islamic

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Originally posted by Luxorlover:
Thanks JAne. I know it sounds daft but it is still comforting to know that my 'marriage' to my partner was respectable and Islamic.

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I know what you mean.

I remember when I first came upon these forums and found out about Orfi. This was after we had been married some time but before I moved here. I was devastated and immediately phoned Mahmoud thinking he had wronged me badly. Boy did I give him a hard time. He was gutted because as far as he was concerned he had done hothing wrong I was married to him in exactly the same way he was married to my co-wife.

I know realise that for me going to Cairo is a waste of space because it would make my marriage here any more legal or more recognised by the community. We aren't going to have children so no problems there and my assets in UK don't automatically become communal property like a UK marriage makes them. On another thread it was said

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The young men often will not be seen with their older wives. They use all sorts of excuses to keep their wives in their homes on the West Bank. The reality is that they do not want to look what they are - users, and they do not want the embarrassment that having an older wife brings with it. In Egypt the only reasons for marrying a woman beyond childbearing age is money or a visa to a better life.

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Every time a complete stranger addresses me as Madame Mahmoud I feel so proud that my marriage is not some shameful secret that my husband wishes to hide.

So Cairo would bring me nothing I need

So yes i know exactly what you mean

[This message has been edited by dreamcatcher (edited 01 July 2004).]

I am glad this forum exists and I learned a lot through the personal experiences posted, but I also read so many bad things about egyptian men and I think we all should be much more fair they are not all the same.
For a believing muslim which learns at a very early age, e.g. through his Koran studies, that it is his right to be married to 4 women cannot see anything wrong with that and why should he change his believes? because of any european lady which tries to tell him so, how dare. We are brought up that it is wrong to marry more than one wife and we demand that we own our partners and we dont see them as individual with a choice. Or instead the opposite we f*** around in swinger clubs where stranger watch us and we find this very normal but for a believing muslim which hardly will be seen nacked by his family this must be really odd, well this is even very, very odd for me as a mind open european. In general I think we should tolerate other cultures and try to understand them the same way as we want other people to understand us and our culture. We have the choice of getting involved with foreign men and no one has a guarantee because of the nationality and I am afraid hearts get broken even at this very minute everywhere on this planet for a lot of reasons......................

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Originally posted by Penny:
Dear azizah:

Really your options are:-
1) He divorces and you get properly married and by this I mean a marriage recognised in both Egypt and your own country. As you say without his divorce there can be no such marriage.

2) You accept to be his second wife and you marry him ORFI, which if stamped by the court will be a legal marriage in Egypt but with no proper rights for you or your future children. He is unlikely to be able to travel to your own country this way.

Are you sure he is not lying to you if his wife and children remain in his home. Seems a bit odd.

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Originally posted by dreamcatcher:
I agree Luxorlover,my egyptians divorse was going to cost him 275,000 Egyptain pounds,6000 egyptian pounds maintance per month. His wife will not accept a 2nd wife, she signed it in contract when they married.
I am sure he has the money, but maybe thought he does not want to loose his childrens. Family members advised him against divorse and to save his marriage, that was the right thing to do. I just wish him well. I came back to my country waiting for my divorse to go through, so I could legally marry him, I had to get divorsed in my country, my divorse would of being through at the end of Feb2004, then when his wife found out and phoned me, I cancelled the divorse proceedings. I still had to pay lawyer for the work he had done on it. thank goodness not the full amount.
So yes, sometimes I do think it is expensive for them to get divorsed, but all depends on contract, he asked his wife, if he could marry me, well you can imagine, I would have felt the same I suppose. So now I have moved on.
Hope that info helps you a bit azizah.
Dreamcatcher

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I think it is important that a marriage is recognized as legal in the country you live in and respected by the people around you and of course in the religion the couple believes in. We should not forget all our laws are man made at one stage and they suited someone at this time and so it does not mean it is right and undoubtedly.

quote:

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Originally posted by akshar:

I know it is so bizare isn't it. BTW no 2 did have Embassy approval becasue that was the statury declaration that the woman was free to marry. It just doesn't have UK Government approval because it is a polgamous narriage.

Also I was told by a Muslim to stop calling mine Orfi as it is an Islamic marriage because it had the male witness, there was a dowry, the intention was to be permanent and it was publically acknowledged.

So my list so far is for a foreigner only

1) Marriage at Ministry of Justice monogomous, valid in and outside Egypt Repectable and Islamic
2) Marriage at Ministry of Justice ploygamous valid in Egypt and other countries that accept polygamous unions Repectable and Islamic
3) Marriage registered in local marriage court monogomous/polygamous valid in Egypt but not outside Repectable and Islamic
4) Marriage in lawyers office (Orfi) unregistered only known about by the parties concerned monogomous/polyogomous valid in Egypt for certain purposes only Not respectable and not Islamic

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quote:

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Originally posted by azizah:
WOW, you can´t say there is no choice.....
Thanks so much for this information!!!

I think it is important that a marriage is recognized as legal in the country you live in and respected by the people around you and of course in the religion the couple believes in. We should not forget all our laws are man made at one stage and they suited someone at this time and so it does not mean it is right and undoubtedly.

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I glad it helped you but please get confirmation from a laywer. My knowledge of legal matters is confined to reruns of LA LAW. The above is my personal take on the matter nothing more.