I hope this is a place to write back.

I am trying to trace the origins of bullroarers, which in so many places are used in both female and male circumcision and FGM rituals during puberty rites. The only reference I can find so far to an illustration of circumcision in ancient Egypt is a VI dynasty wall inscription (mentioned as being in George Sarton by an Egyptian Professor Ead). I have no other information and would treasure a better source for this piece of art.

Also, do you know what kinds of knives were used in these rituals? Is there any evidence that the pre-dynastic rhombic palettes were ever used in this way? If circumcision diffused out of Africa, the link to palettes seemed important to me because they were used in funerary rites and also had traces of the ochre and other powders that appear on contemporary (18th to 20th centuries) bullroarers in New Guinea and Australia.

Last, I have found an association between the bullroarer and birds--both in initiation and in death. In many of the central Australian tribes, the bullroarer or circumcision knife is called "muramura." The initiates use circumcision blood to affix feathers to themselves. In the Egyptian hieroglyphic dictionary I have, the sound "MR" is made by combining the hieroglyphs for "owl" (which often is associated with death in other cultures) and "mouth", which is exactly the shape of the classic bullroarer.

Does anybody have any ideas about this?

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Originally posted by Bethe:
I have been trying to find the topic entitled "Curtailment of Women in Egypt," and I can't. I was following the dialogue between you and an anthropologist that I got to from a Google search.

I hope this is a place to write back.

I am trying to trace the origins of bullroarers, which in so many places are used in both female and male circumcision and FGM rituals during puberty rites. The only reference I can find so far to an illustration of circumcision in ancient Egypt is a VI dynasty wall inscription (mentioned as being in George Sarton by an Egyptian Professor Ead). I have no other information and would treasure a better source for this piece of art.

Also, do you know what kinds of knives were used in these rituals? Is there any evidence that the pre-dynastic rhombic palettes were ever used in this way? If circumcision diffused out of Africa, the link to palettes seemed important to me because they were used in funerary rites and also had traces of the ochre and other powders that appear on contemporary (18th to 20th centuries) bullroarers in New Guinea and Australia.

Last, I have found an association between the bullroarer and birds--both in initiation and in death. In many of the central Australian tribes, the bullroarer or circumcision knife is called "muramura." The initiates use circumcision blood to affix feathers to themselves. In the Egyptian hieroglyphic dictionary I have, the sound "MR" is made by combining the hieroglyphs for "owl" (which often is associated with death in other cultures) and "mouth", which is exactly the shape of the classic bullroarer.

Does anybody have any ideas about this?

Bethe

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Bethe their is much debate over the origin of the bullroarer, (As is the origin of circumcision)(earliest physical evidence of the practice of circumcision dates from ancient Egypt (2300 BC)
http://www.circlist.com/images/egypt1.jpg

however the oldest bullroarers to date come from Australia, and are imbeded in the oldest of traditions and dream time myths predating including circumcision the oldest physical evidance. Something else you may take into consideration is that the bullroarer was also used in communication. Like other musical instuments were used in other countries for distance communication so was the bullroarer, possibly the oldest of its type.

Dream time origins of the Aboriginal Bullroarer.
http://www.yidaki.com.au/dreaming%20joy/bullroarer.htm

I found this site informative although some is not totaly correct. But their are a varity of views.
http://www.circlist.com/rites/rites.html

This is also very interesting, about the Bantu.
http://eprints.anu.edu.au/archive/00000921/00/Marck1.pdf

Im not sure if you are looking for a connection between Egypts practices and Australia (And other ancient) rituals, but the practice of circumcision as well as the use of the Bullroarer well and truely pre dates that of egypt and any other cultures of the nile.

It is most likely that the Bantu Speakers who are the decendance of the first out of Africa people would have taken the practice and maybe the bullroarer with them, this would have been at the very least 60,000 years ago (Ausstralian Aboriginals earliest date of arrival). Although some of the more ancient tribes who share the oldest dna do not practice circumcision.

The use of he Bullroarer also seems to follow the first out of africa route along the coast, It is harder to trace circumcision along the same route however. As the traditions of many of the native people have been changed for many thousands of years.

I would not consider an Egytian origen for the circumcision nor the bullroarer though. Im not sure that this is what you are trying to find.

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Originally posted by Kem-Au:
Ozzy,

After looking at that first image, I'm not sure I'd want to be circumsized AE style. That first guy looks like he's praying for the surgeon not to slip up.

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Originally posted by Keino:
Were AEs the first to practice circumcision? If not then whom did they learn it from? What other cultures followed and did they learn from the AEs?

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Only recently over the last 600 years has the practice changed. If the practice and rituals can be traced to other peoples outside of Africa then the oldest practicing cultures are at least 60,000 years old, this means it pre-dates any cultures along the nile. So an origin from Egypt is not possible.

However with that said, the subject of circumcisions origins and its spread in more recent history, re: the last 4000 years is another story. It is very possible that circumcision was largly practiced not only by the priests but the genral public in Egypt and the practice spread with certain religions. It does seem to be the case that Egypt was the first Civilisation to have embraced the practice nationaly, and not all in relation to religion.

Keino, if you are realy interested I can pull out (no pun intended) the research I did on the subject years ago, which was in greater detail, it included some about Egypt but most was in relation to ancient art and the depiction of circumcision, which lead me to look further for its origins.

Ozzy

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Originally posted by Ozzy:
Its not known which group first practiced circumcision, however it is agreed that it most likely was practiced universaly by the different nomadic bush peoples of africa who picket up each others traditions consistantly.

Only recently over the last 600 years has the practice changed. If the practice and rituals can be traced to other peoples outside of Africa then the oldest practicing cultures are at least 60,000 years old, this means it pre-dates any cultures along the nile. So an origin from Egypt is not possible.

However with that said, the subject of circumcisions origins and its spread in more recent history, re: the last 4000 years is another story. It is very possible that circumcision was largly practiced not only by the priests but the genral public in Egypt and the practice spread with certain religions. It does seem to be the case that Egypt was the first Civilisation to have embraced the practice nationaly, and not all in relation to religion.

Keino, if you are realy interested I can pull out (no pun intended) the research I did on the subject years ago, which was in greater detail, it included some about Egypt but most was in relation to ancient art and the depiction of circumcision, which lead me to look further for its origins.

Ozzy

[This message has been edited by Ozzy (edited 27 March 2004).]

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