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[QUOTE]Originally posted by homeylu: [QB] I'm sorry neo*geo, but sometimes you can be so simple, screaming for "sources" when they are right in front of your face. Do you think I made up the "Code of Hammarubi" or the "Tel Armana Tablets" or "The Moabite stone"..How about typing any of these findings into a search engine, as there are numerous "sources" out there. Originally posted by neo*geo [b]You should read Israel Finklestein for a different perspective[/b] One source! Is this the best you can do???? Originally posted by Neo*Geo [b]The Bible is right about many things but to take it literally or as unquestionable history is stretching its value. [/b] Has anyone in this thread including myself or Wally said we take it "literally" or that it was "unquestionable"..is your argument against an imaginary person? Originally posted by Neo*Geo [b]"there is no evidence that the Jews were enslaved in Egypt or that the Exodus ever happened"......"There may very well have been an Exodus "[/b] Contradicting yourself again I see. Originally posted by neo*geo [b]there would be some written or archaeological record of it.[/b] If the code of Hammarubi, the tel armana tablets, and the Moabite stone are not archaelogical records, I dont know what to make of it. But if you want some additional "archaelogical" sources, you may want to start with: Bruins, H.J. and J. van der Plicht. 1996. The Exodus enigma. Nature 382: 213-214. Renfrew, C. 1996. Kings, tree rings and the Old World. Nature 381:733-734. Kuniholm, P. I., Kromer, B., Manning, S. W., Newton, M., Latini, C. E., and Bruce, M. J. 1996. Anatolian tree rings and the absolute chronology of the eastern Mediterranean, 2220-718 BC Nature 381:780-783. Friedrich, W.L., P. Wagner, and H. Tauber. 1990. Thera and the Aegean World III Thera Foundation, London, UK. (Don't ask me to mail them to you)-*wink Originally posted by Wally [b]The so-called "slaves" of Ancient Egypt were captives of war, which the Pharaoh put to work on his building projects[/b] Exactly!! And there is significant evidence depicting nomadic captives of war like this one here (of course there were Nubian captives as well) [URL=http://www.africawithin.com/tour/egypt/abusimbel/abusimbel24.jpg]http://www.africawithin.com/tour/egypt/abusimbel/abusimbel24.jpg[/URL] As I stated before I DO NOT TAKE EVERY SINGLE WORLD IN THE BIBLE LITERALLY and definitely not word for word, but it is a historical account of events that have taken place throughout history, and archaelogical evidence does not refute these events. While Biblical Scholars and Scientist both agree that there is significant conflicts with specific "time-lines" there is also significant evidence that the events did take place. (I dont think radiocarbon dating was around during Biblical times.) So the several authors of the Bible could have easily conflicted with time-frames.(You dont even have to go to scientist, as several scriptures themselves conficlicts with others) And the final Bible as we read it today was put together by several translators most notably the Bishops that attended the First Council of Nicaea that were the foundation of the Roman Catholic Church. Nevertheless, considering the conflicts in timeframes it has also been argued by an earlier Jewish Historian, Josephus, that the Hebrews of Moses were actually the Hyskos and dicoveries after his time have asserted that this was extremely possible considering: [list] [*]"The Bible tells us that Moses belonged to a large group of Semitic settlers whose ancestors had arrived in Egypt from the land of Canaan. This rings very true for archaeological evidence shows that such groups of people from Canaan were settling in parts of the Eastern Delta from around the middle of Egypt's 12th Dynasty. Evidence has been unearthed, for example at Tell el-Dab'a in the Delta, that these newcomers were of mixed origin, including pastorial nomads like the Hebrews described in Genesis 47:1-11." [*]"It should also be noted that the route chosen by the escaping Israelites, from Piramesse to Tjeku (biblical Succoth: Exodus 12:37) and eastwards, was precisely the same that was used by two escaping slaves of the late 13th century BC, as reported in Papyrus Anastasi V." [*]"First century historian Josephus when he says that the Israelite exodus was, in fact, the exodus of the Hyksos peoples from Egypt. The Hyksos exodus has been determined as being in the reign of Ahmose I, which would therefore place the biblical exodus at just the right time for the biblical plagues to be coincident with the Tempest Stele." [*]"The biblical plagues have a similar theme to that which has been translated from the Tempest Stele: [i] ... a thick darkness, without the least light, spread itself over the Egyptians; whereby their sight being obstructed, and their breathing hindered by the thickness of the air ... under a terror least they be swallowed up by the dark cloud ... Hail was sent down from heaven, and such hail it was, as the climate of Egypt had never suffered before ... the hail broke down their boughs laden with fruit."[/i] [*]"This brings us to the rather interesting translation of the Tempest Stele, which accords so well with the biblical account, indeed it appears to be a direct quotation from the Bible." Tempest Stele [i] Then his Majesty began ... to provide them with silver, with gold, with copper, with oil, and of every bolt [of cloth] that could be desired. Then his majesty made himself comfortable inside the palace.[/i] Bible scripture [i]This is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, silver, and brass [copper]. And cloth of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen ... oil for the light, spices for anointing oil and for sweet incense ... and let them make a [palace] sanctuary that I may dwell among them[/i] coincidence??? "A summary of the events leading up to the exodus is perhaps required at this point. We know, from both the historical and biblical records, that the people of Egypt thought that the gods were angry during this period; clearly, both the Tempest Stele and the Bible talk of great storms deluging the otherwise arid lands of Egypt. We also know that there were tensions between the Theban pharaohs and the Hyksos pharaohs, and likewise between the Egyptian pharaoh and the Israelites; both records again speak of political / religious tensions between the two parties involved. Furthermore, we know that both the Hyksos and the Israelites were thrown out of Egypt and that both these events involved a battle with the Egyptian army. Finally, both the entire Hyksos and the entire Israelites population embarked on an exodus towards Palestine, the Egyptian historian Manetho even indicating that the destination of the Hyksos refugees was Jerusalem." According to the Bible, the Israelites wanted to leave Egypt, but the (Theban) pharaoh would not let them go. I think the Bible is nearly correct in this, but that the true situation was not that the (Theban) pharaoh would not let them go, but that the he would not agree to their terms. Thus the Israelites go back to the pharaoh time and time again asking if he will agree; he accedes at last, but only after there were a number of national calamities (plagues), including deaths among the Egyptian people. The third century BC Egyptian historian Manetho: "The [Theban] pharaoh attacked the walls [of Avaris] with an army of 480,000 men, and endeavoured to reduce [the Hyksos] to submission by siege. Despairing of achieving his object, he concluded a TREATY under which they were all to evacuate Egypt and go whither they would unmolested. Upon these terms no fewer than 240,000 families with their possessions, left Egypt and traversed the deserts to Syria [later explained as being Jerusalem]." Bible [i]"Bible: Speak now in the ears of the [Israelites], and let every man borrow of his neighbour [the Egyptians] ... jewels of silver and jewels of gold. And the Lord gave the [Israelites] favour in the sight of the Egyptians, so that they Ślentą them such things as they required. And they spoiled the Egyptians. They [the Egyptians] also honoured the Hebrews with gifts; some in order to get them to depart quickly, and others on account of their neighbourhood and the friendship they had with them.[/i] [/list] The Hyksos and the Hebrews were racially akin. Some of the Hyksos rulers had Semitic names: one, for example, was called Jacob-el (Ya' qub-'al), 'May El give protection', and another, Jacob-baal, 'May Baal protect'. Most scholars now agree that there is some connection between the Hyksos rule of Egypt and the settling of the Hebrews there. And we do hundreds of thousands of Hyskos were driven out of Egypt after more than a century of fighting. Hencefore, there was an EXODUS FROM EGYPT [/QB][/QUOTE]
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