...
Post A Reply
my profile
|
directory
login
|
register
|
search
|
faq
|
forum home
»
EgyptSearch Forums
»
Egyptology
»
Kushites: “Nilo-Saharan” speakers vs. a “language isolate” speakers
» Post A Reply
Post A Reply
Login Name:
Password:
Message Icon:
Message:
HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.
[QUOTE]Originally posted by kenndo: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Supercar: [qb] [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: Secondly, researchers have compared the “attested Meroitic” terms to all the Nilo-Saharan languages. The results were negative, they do not relate to any Eastern Sudanic language. [/QUOTE]I’ve already shown you that, Rilly disagrees with you on this, and why. [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: If the lexical items attested in Meroitic are not cognate to Eastern Sudanic terms, there is no way to establish a genetic relationship between these languages. Absence of a genetic relationship means that we can not reconstruct the imagined IPLs of Meroitic sister languages, since these researchers failed to find a connection between Meroitic and the Eastern Sudanic.[/QUOTE]Rilly: lexicostatistical methods were used…Lexicostatistics are a good method to identify a linguistic family for a language whose genetic nature is unknown. But this approach [b]does not provide definite evidence.[/b] The one and [b]only way to get it for sure[/b] is the [b]classical comparative method[/b] as illustrated by Meillet for the Indo-European family, by Guthrie for Proto-Bantu, etc. And again: So it was necessary, [b]first to find regular phonetic correspondences between North Eastern Sudanic languages, second to reconstruct the original phonology of Proto-North Eastern Sudanic, third to reconstruct, as much as possible, some Proto-North Eastern Sudanic words, and finally to compare these proto-forms with Meroitic words.[/b] Which brings me to the question of, for a language “whose genetic nature is unknown”, how the hell you are able to determine that “genetic nature”, presumably from another ‘dead’ language, which has evaded so many linguist experts? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: My decipherment of Meroitic is based on the Kushana theory. The Kushana theory is that a group of “East Indian” scholars introduced the Meroitic writing system to the Meroites.[/QUOTE]So I take it that “Kushanan” writing is just as deciphered as Meroitic. :D [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: The Kushana hypothesis was based on the following evidence, 1) no African language has been found to be a cognate language of Meroitic 2) the Classical literature says that the Kushites lived in Asia and Africa; 3) the Gymnosophists, or "naked sages" of Meroe came from India.[/QUOTE]What language have you proposed to be cognate to “Meroitic”, which by your definition, is tantamount to an non-African language, meaning that “Meroitic” and its script are foreign to Africa? When did this language arrive the Nile Valley, during pre-dynastic or dynastic times? Did the commoners then abandon their own native languages for this newly arrived language that early in history? Has the “dead” language brough by these foreigners to the Nile Valley been deciphered? There where kingdoms called Kush in Africa and Asia, but these are two different cultures and people. Kushites did venture into Asia, for trade purposes, and in some cases, military assistance, but I don’t recall coming across any reputable source positing their settlement in those regions. Even if this were the case, how does this suppose that the Kushites living in their native African lands, just decided to abandon their native tongue? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: Flavius Philostratus, the writer of the Vita Apollonii, Vol. 1,cliamed that the Gymnosophists of Meroe originally came from India (see F.C. Conybeare, Philostratus:The Life of Apollonius of Tyana (p.45),1950). Given the fact that the Kushana had formerly ruled India around the time that the Meroitic writing was introduced to the Kushite civilization, led to the hypothesis that the ancestors of the Gymnosophist may have been Kushana philosophers.[/QUOTE]Where can I get my hands on the source that points out Meroitic script in India, which was then passed onto the Meroites/Kushites, interestingly exhibiting Egyptian hieratic and demotic influence? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: There is external evidence, which supports my theory. A theory explains observed phenomena and has predictive power. I have theorized that due to the claims of the Classical writers that some of the Meroites came from India (F.C Conybeare (Trans.), Philostratus: The life of Apollonius of Tyana Vol.2, (1950) pg.271). According to the Life of Apollonius, the Indian Meroites were formerly led by a King Ganges, who had "repulsed the Scythians who invaded this land [India from] across the Caucasus" (Conybeare, Vol.1, Pg.273). Pilostratus also made it clear that the Indians of Meroe came to this country after their king was killed.[/QUOTE]…and what genetic legacy do you propose that these Indian Meroites had left on the Nile Valley landscape? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: Confirmation of the Ganges story, supports the Classical literary evidence that their were Indianized-Meroites that could have introduced the Tokharian trade language to the Meroites.[/QUOTE]…so I take it that the “dead” Tokharian is also in the same status as the Meroitic script? Who are "all" the folks who used this trade language and script? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: makes it almost impossible to deny the possibility that Indians, familiar with the Tokharian trade language did not introduce this writing to the Meroites who needed a neutral language to unify the diverse ethnic groups who made up the Meroite state.[/QUOTE]…indeed, a “neutral” language, which seems to have adopted a script sporting certain influences from Egyptian hieroglyphics”, “hieratic” and “demotic” characters. [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: In relation to the history of linguistic change and bilingualism, it is a mistake to believe that linguistic transfer had to take place for the Meroites to have used Tokharian, when it did not take place when they wrote in Egyptian hieroglyphics.[/QUOTE]Do you see genetic relationship between Meroitic language and Egyptian, and hence, do you see genetic relationship between the so-called Tokharian and Meroitic? Again, Tokharian decipherment must have escaped other linguists, and it too, must exhibit features that are reminiscent of Egyptian hieroglyphics, hieratic and demotic characters, right? [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: The fact that the Nubians who were part of the "Meroitic state", used hieroglyphics and Coptic to write their language without abandoning their native language support the view that they could have also used Tokharian to write Meroitic. And that eventhough they wrote Meroitic inscriptions in Tokharian, they would not have had to abandon Nubian.[/QUOTE]…the Nubian which is absolutely dead now, and hence, was apparently abandoned at some point, if your claims are anything to go by, and therefore impossible for the likes of Rilly to examine the bridges between the languages and the contemporary ones, which seem to be related. [QUOTE] Clyde Winters; My confirmation of the above five variables: the presence of Kushites in Africa and Asia; the presence of Kushana sages in India who may have migrated to Meroe; [/QUOTE]Meroe in Asia, or in Africa. Lol. If these Indian Kushana’s did indeed come to the Nile Valley, which in itself is possible, then they would not have left much genetic imprint in the region. If you feel this is otherwise, presentation of the corresponding genetic evidence, wouldn’t be a bad idea. [QUOTE]Clyde Winters: cognate lexical items; cognate verbs and cognate grammatical features indicates systematic controlled, critical and empirical investigation of the question of Kushana representing the Meroitic cognate language.[/QUOTE]For a ‘dead’ language, whose genetic nature is unknown, you know the genetic nature of another “dead” language, which is supposedly related the former, i.e., Meroitic? So you claim that the Kushites didn’t abandon their native language itself, but then, there is no language alive that can be determined to be cognative with Meroitic language, if not the script…not even in the region, where the Kushite descendants continue to live? [/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
Instant Graemlins
Instant UBB Code™
What is UBB Code™?
Options
Disable Graemlins in this post.
*** Click here to review this topic. ***
Contact Us
|
EgyptSearch!
(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com
Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3