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OT: African Israelites?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] ^ It's clear Haplogroup J1-M267 is still Eurasian and its presence in Africa is due to back-migration. Nowhere in the paper I cited did it say hg J has to do with the origin of Proto-Semitic but rather it is [i]associated[/i] with the spread of its daughter languages including back into Africa. Southern Arabia and Africa were centers of development of J1's [b]sub-branches[/b] but not J1 itself. This is like hg E1b1b-M215 having sub-branches in Southwest Asia and Southeast Europe as somehow proof that it's Eurasian. Also what do how Lachish Judeans look like have to do with the topic? Lachish cranial features metrically resemble Egyptians and Nubians but non-metrically (genetically) they don't. [/qb][/QUOTE]Actually the point I was making is they don't have ancient DNA coverage to confirm these proposed results based on modern DNA only. If haplogroup J originated between Arabia and Africa, then it only to the Caucasus in the first place due to migrations from these regions. And the bigger issue is that this is purely a reconstructed history based on limited ancient DNA from across Arabia and the Levant. The paper itself states this clearly and the current distribution of J related haplogroups between Southern Arabia and Africa don't necessarily reflect the ancient origin or distribution of those J related sibling lineages...... Obviously the history of haplogroup J still primarily in between Arabia and Africa and those later lineages don't change that. And until you actually get ancient DNA from these regions there is no guarantee that these proposed histories are absolutely correct. And no I am not saying that migrations from the caucasus hasn't happened, but that certain lineages may not have originated in the caucasus. Obviously to show migrations introduced new lineages to a region, you have to show a before and after set of lineages where the change from one to another. And they don't have that for ancient South Arabia or the Levant. Obviously this applies to the Judeans depicted on the Lachish remains which represents the diversity of ancient populations in the region at the time. The question is what is the relationship between those populations and later Isrealites, because those Judeans are the exiled populations from which later Isrealite tradition emerged. Which means it is quite possible those later Caucasian lineages originated after the exile of the Judeans as seen in the Lachish relief in Assyria/Babylon. Obviously the Southern Levant being close to Africa makes it easy to see African or Africoid populations there as part of a cline of phenotype and genetics. And you still have such populations in the region to this day. [QUOTE] The history of ancient Israel and Judah begins in the Southern Levant region of Western Asia during the Late Bronze Age and Early Iron Age. The earliest known reference to "Israel" as a people or tribal confederation (see Israelites) is in the Merneptah Stele, an inscription from ancient Egypt that dates to about 1208 BCE, but the people group may be older. According to modern archaeology, ancient Israelite culture developed as an outgrowth from the pre-existing Canaanite civilization. Two related Israelite polities known as the Kingdom of Israel (Samaria) and the Kingdom of Judah had emerged in the region by Iron Age II. According to the Hebrew Bible, a "United Monarchy" (consisting of Israel and Judah) existed as early as the 11th century BCE, under the reigns of Saul, David, and Solomon; the country later split into two kingdoms: Israel, containing the cities of Shechem and Samaria in the north, and Judah (containing Jerusalem and the Jewish Temple) in the south. The historicity of the United Monarchy is debated—as there are no archaeological remains of it that are accepted as consensus—but historians and archaeologists agree that Israel and Judah existed as separate kingdoms by c. 900 BCE[1]: 169–195 [2] and c. 850 BCE,[3] respectively.[4] The Kingdom of Israel was destroyed around 720 BCE, when it was conquered by the Neo-Assyrian Empire.[5] While the Kingdom of Judah remained intact during this time, it became a client state of first the Neo-Assyrian Empire and then the Neo-Babylonian Empire. However, Jewish revolts against the Babylonians led to the destruction of Judah in 586 BCE, under the rule of Babylonian king Nebuchadnezzar II. According to the biblical account, the armies of Nebuchadnezzar II besieged Jerusalem between 589–586 BCE, which led to the destruction of Solomon's Temple and the exile of the Jews to Babylon; this event was also recorded in the Babylonian Chronicles.[6][7] The exilic period saw the development of the Israelite religion (Yahwism) towards the monotheistic Judaism. [/QUOTE] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_ancient_Israel_and_Judah [IMG]https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg/402px-Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg.png[/IMG] https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bd/Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg/402px-Kingdoms_of_Israel_and_Judah_map_830.svg.png Not to mention it is fairly established tradition that the patriarch Abraham was born in modern day Iraq. And this is supported by both Jews and Arabs: [QUOTE] Ur Kasdim (Hebrew: אוּר כַּשְׂדִּים, romanized: ʾŪr Kaśdīm), commonly translated as Ur of the Chaldeans, is a city mentioned in the Hebrew Bible as the birthplace of Abraham, the patriarch of the Israelites and the Ishmaelites. In 1862, Henry Rawlinson identified Ur Kaśdim with Tell el-Muqayyar near Nasiriyah in the Baghdad Eyalet of the Ottoman Empire (now in Iraq).[1] In 1927, Leonard Woolley excavated the site and identified it as a Sumerian archaeological site where the Chaldeans were to settle around the 9th century BC.[2] Recent archaeology work has continued to focus on the location in Nasiriyah, where the ancient Ziggurat of Ur is located.[3][4][5][6][7][8] Other sites traditionally thought to be Abraham's birthplace are in the vicinity of the city of Edessa (now Urfa in the Southeastern Anatolia Region of Turkey). [/QUOTE] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ur_of_the_Chaldees [QUOTE] Most scholars view the patriarchal age, along with the Exodus and the period of the biblical judges, as a late literary construct that does not relate to any particular historical era,[8] and after a century of exhaustive archaeological investigation, no evidence has been found for a historical Abraham.[9] It is largely concluded that the Torah, the series of books that includes Genesis, was composed during the early Persian period, c. 500 BC, as a result of tensions between Jewish landowners who had stayed in Judah during the Babylonian captivity and traced their right to the land through their "father Abraham", and the returning exiles who based their counterclaim on Moses and the Exodus tradition of the Israelites.[10][/QUOTE] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abraham Ultimately reflecting that this movement of Northern Caucasian lineages into the Southern Levant took place during this post exile period due to Assyrian/Babylonian conquest and influence. [QUOTE] Haplogroup J originated approximately 42.6 kya (95% CI: 30.0–64.7), with several of its earliest branches being found within the Arabian Peninsula and Northern Africa. J1b was found most frequently in the Near East and Arabian Peninsula, while J1c occurred most frequently in Europe. Based on phylogenetic dating, subhaplogroup J1c has its early roots in the Mediterranean and Western Balkans. Otherwise, the majority of the branches found in Scandinavia are younger than those seen elsewhere, indicating that haplogroup J dispersed relatively recently into Northern Europe, most plausibly with Neolithic farmers.[/QUOTE] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10100211/ [/QB][/QUOTE]
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