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who were the MOORS
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by kenndo: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] Khawashkar, you OBVIOUSLY are trying to FORCE us to accept that ONLY whites from the EXTREME coast are TRUE Berbers. NOBODY is denying that Arabs introduced Islam to Africa. But YOU are trying to single out Berbers as "special" in the sense that they SOMEHOW are superior to the "black" Africans who were also FORCED to convert to Islam. Islam was basically an arm of of Arab colonialism, just as much as Christianity became a form of EUROPEAN colonialism and you can SEE where the latter got its ideas from the former. Arabs called ALL NORTH Africans that they encountered "Berber" in the Middle to Medeival period. That is a HUGE group of people. Trying to make ALL people labelled as Berber "white" is ridiculous. Those Berbers along the coast are OBVIOUSLY mixed with MANY peoples, including Europeans, Arabs and Africans. However, the ORIGINAL North Africans, including Magrebians, Berbers, Tuareg, Numidians and others were black, and I am going back 5,000 years or so. On the same token, there is historical evidence of the presence of "white" Africans along the coastal areas, but there is a debate over whether the "white" phenotype originated in Africa by itself or derived from foreigners. The fact that most of these "white" Berbers are close to the shore makes it possible that they have had more admixture. Over time various invaders into North Africa have left their genetic imprint on the populations of North Africa even if North Africans have had a indegenous phenotype and population from ancient times. Various Berber groups THEMSELVES say that they trace their lineages back to Yemen or somewhere else OUTSIDE of Africa and some of these people are PITCH black. This is a sad state of affairs in North Africa, as the various colonizers who have INVADED North Africa including, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Italians, Spanish, Portugeuse and the French have ALL tried to twist the social-ethnic-religious environment and history to SUIT their purposes. Even NOW you have the leaders of Morrocco and other North African countries claiming DIRECT descent from the Prophet, a form of Arab centrism, wrapped up in Islamic garb. Therefore, trying to claim that "white" Berbers are the only TRUE Berbers is blatant B.S. This form of white supremacy, which puts white arab followed by white african above black African, is just as bad as ANY form of white supremacy no matter WHAT nationality or religion produces it. Now, the FIRST Islamic armies that entered North Africa entered into Egypt and were mainly Arabian, with elements from Syria and Persia. These armies FACED a CONFEDERATION of DIFFERENT Berber clans in North Africa led by Al-Kahina. This group was the LAST to offer serious resistance to ARABIZATION and ISLAMIZATION. It is HARD to say exactly WHO made up this federation, but the FACT that it was made up of DIFFERENT berber tribes makes it HARD to say that they were ONLY "white" Berbers among them. In fact, given that this was 1300 years ago, it is HARD to know exactly HOW those people would compare to the Berbers (any group of Berbers) today. Suffice to say, trying to make ALL Berbers of the past white as well as trying to make all Berbers of today white is NONSENSE. The facts of genetics is clear that MOST Berbers share some form of East African heredity associated with the neolithic expansion of Africans across the once moist sahara to ALL parts of Africa. One thing you must also remember is that Islam was vicious against ALL non Muslims in this period, whether it be European, Persian, African or Asian. Part of the reason that Islam has CRUMBLED is because it absorbed MANY groups under its umbrella, but could NOT keep them all unified under ARABISM or ISLAMISM. This has caused MANY fractures within Islam going back to the very beginning. So the spread of Islam featured as many INTERNAL struggles as EXTERNAL ones. The invasion of North Africa did not CHANGE this at all. In fact, the term Moor only glosses over the fact that there were MANY factions within the Moorish community and that they were not ALL unified as one group. THIS is why you have various dynasties rising up from various areas of North West Africa and ALL of these people were NOT Berbers. Some of them were the descendants of the ORIGINAL Africans in the sahara, some were Berbers (linguistically), some were from West Africa. Therefore, it is IMPOSSIBLE to try and put a purely BERBER face on the Moors. The fact is that the term Moor largely came to be used in describing the often dark skinned Africans that began arriving Spain after the muslim invasion. NO, not ALL of these Muslims were black. Nobody is saying that. HOWEVER, to try and say that ONLY "white" north Africans qualify as TRUE berbers or TRUE Moors because they got DEFEATED first is NONSENSE. They got defeated just like MANY OTHER PEOPLES got defeated by the Islamic armies and this is nothing "special" to make note of. There are TO THIS DAY various groups in North West and West Africa who identify themselves as Moors and this stretches from Morrocco, to Niger, Senegal, and Mauretania. You have GOT to be kidding when you try and imply that the some of the Dynasties from these areas were NOT black Africans and would NOT have been identified as such. That is PURELY ridiculous. Just look at all the various factions and dynasties within the Moorish period of Europe as well as Medeival Islamic North Africa and you will SEE that there were MANY tribes, clans and subgroups of Islam and African fighting amongst one another for control. You cannot put all these people into one group because they themselves WERE NOT UNIFIED. However, it is important to remember that there IS a racial component to the relations between BLACK Africans (berber and non-berber) and white North Africans and a LOT of it stems from the Arab hostility towards blacks. This racial attitude has caused much disruption among the native Black North African populations, as well as the arrival of French and Portugeuese colonists in the 17 and 1800s. But remember that WHITEs were taken into slavery in the Islamic world in VERY LARGE numbers during the Medeival period, so it is NOT as if slavery was STRICTLY a racial concept. In fact, some say over a million European women made it to North Africa as slaves and left an indelible mark on the population. Bottom line, in focusing on a exclusive "white" identity for Berbers and trying to make them representative of ALL Berbers or ALL North Africans, is ridiculous. It is ALSO ridiculous to try and make "white" North Africans representative of the ORIGINAL populations of North Africa. North AFrica from Morrocco to Egypt covering all of the Sahara is BIGGER than the United States. You CANT be serious in trying to make a COASTAL population of "white" people REPRESENTATIVE of ALMOST 1/3 the continent either currently or historically. It is a RIDICULOUS concept to say the least. Photos from Morrocco. While they do not show many Black Africans, that does NOT mean that they are not there and were not there historically. Also note that these are NOT the Moors identified as wearing the veil and blue garb seen ELSEWHERE in Africa, signifying that there are MANY groups and sub-groups within Islamic North West and Western Africa and they are NOT the same. Also note that some of these pictures show some of the ongoing struggles WITHIN these communities, making the idea of everyone being of ONE identity A LIE. http://www.flickr.com/groups/moroccan/pool/page1/ Barbary Pirates and European slaves: http://www.iconfilms.co.uk/whiteslaves/seekingawreck.html Moorish Dynasties: Umayyad: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umayyad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliph_of_Cordoba http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almoravid (Tashfin himself was black, and the Almoravids were largely from Niger, Senegal and the Sahara, much like the Tuareg, yet MANY authors try and separate him from black "pagans" as if they were of different races, much like what is going on in Sudan today) http://bewley.virtualave.net/tashfin.html But let us not forget that these people supposedly came from the South of Morrocco a historically BLACK African area of Morrocco and were associated with people FURTHER SOUTH. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Almohad http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Las_Navas_de_Tolosa http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nasrid_dynasty http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marinid [/qb][/QUOTE]YOU made alot of good points doug,however as you know medieval nubians fought against the arabs first and were more effective THAN the north africans west of egypt and so was axum and later ethiopia. Many of the black africans however that accepted islam kept thier own faiths too and most africans outside of north africa accepted islam to protect themselves from the constant arab and berber raids and to expand their kingdoms wealth and power. Up to date learning was a reason to accepted islam too,of course there were many africans who had the up to date learning but did not become muslims in the medieval and early modern period.Many were not muslims in the bambara kingdoms but alot had update advanced african muslim learning.you know this one but i just want to mention it,MOST africans in africa were not muslims.most africans are not muslims today as well,but are alot of african muslisms. strong african kings protect their people.IN OTHER WORDS not all africans converted to islam by the sword.many of the ones that accepted islam did it for other reasons.The major reasons i have mention already. OH ANOTHER point,the tuareg that i have seen so far seem to be of the black race and brown race.I THINK HOWEVER there ARE more that are of the brown race,but one thing i know for sure,i have not seen yet any tuareg that are white. peace. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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