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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by kawashkar: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: The discrimination that is based around those descended from WHITE Spanish invaders who CONQUERED indigenous groups in South America and make up the MAJORITY of the upper classes there now. [/QUOTE]Who says Spaniards are WHITE in the first place? Some are but many aren't. Not even the conquestadors were all WHITE. They were Europeans but not necessarily Nordics. I have show in pictures that some Native Americans are lighter than some Spaniards. lol. That's show how little you know about that topic. [b] Shows how little left there is to your ARGUMENT that you introduce something that was NEVER part of the discussion. As I recall, we were NOT talking about the skin complexion of the Spaniards who invaded America[/b] [QUOTE] They ALSO established a color system that PROMOTES division by identifying people by their SKIN color and the combination of mixtures between Africans, Indians and WHITE Spanish. [/QUOTE]First, Africans where really considerated inferior -that's true. The relation between Spaniards and frienly Indians was different. [b] Most of North Africa IS INLAND. The Spanish only tolerated "friendly" Indians because they didnt have the manpower to defeat the Aztecs outright. Once the Aztecs were defeated, they conquered these "friendly" Indians. [QUOTE] Through cunning and intrigue Cortés forged an alliance with the Totonacs at the coastal city-state Cempoala, then under Aztec dominion. The Spanish army was thus beefed up with more than a thousand native warriors plus 200 porters. With a small party left to hold the fort at Vera Cruz, Cortés commenced the hazardous journey towards the Aztec capital. [/QUOTE]from: http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/travel/dpalfrey/dpconquest.html [/b] [QUOTE] But of course you DENY the history of the last 500 years to glorify in the RESULT of what was Spanish COLONIZATION and OCCUPATION in the NAME of the King and Queen of Spain. There is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are, but DONT deny the FACTS. [/QUOTE]There is not occupation anymore. We broke free from Spaniards fighting (nobody gave us independency for free, like it happens in other latitudeS). In second place, 99% of Latin Americans have some degree of Native Ancestry, so this is our HOME. [b]It may not be occupation, but the fact is that those who have the economic and political POWER in South America are STILL largely descendants of WHITE Spaniards and Portuguese.[/b] [QUOTE] Will of WHAT people? YOU should study miscgenation and provide PROOF that natives wanted to have their LAND stolen, culture stolen and women abused by Spaniards as SEX toys. [/QUOTE]Really? Don't you realize Native women where sold like goods by many Native Americans? In many cases the Native women themselves abandoned their tribes to go to the Spanish towns. And, far from the "far west" ideology "gringos" have pushed into English Speaking education, the records of interacial marryiage exist, with names and races, since the 16th century. [b]SO WHAT? There are ALWAYS traitors in EVERY race. There were French women who slept with German soldiers in WWII, does that CHANGE what the Germans were doing to France? [/b] [QUOTE] So Cortez and the lot of Spanish conquistadors did not commit genocide against MANY indigenous groups? [/QUOTE]Do you know who Cortes (with "s") fought against? The Aztecs. A people that controlled the native tribes of Mexico by spreading terror by massive human sacrifices. You should know most of the troops of Cortes were Native American allies. Cortes have descendents with Malinche (Native American) and they become Spanish nobles. [b] YOU should know that subsequent WAVES of Spanish assisted Cortes in CONQUERING these tribes as well[/b] [QUOTE] Sure they may not have killed ALL native groups, but that is not something POSITIVE. The POINT is that they killed enough in order to force the natives to submit to Spanish rule. [/QUOTE]Spaniards were a fighting machine. The best soldiers of theirs time. They killed anyone that opposed them in Holland, North Africa or the Americas. They did not practise genocide, though. They killed people in battle. [b] They also commited atrocities and had a SCORCHED EARTH policy. The fact that they DIDNT kill off ALL Indians in South America DOES NOT make their actions POSITIVE in any sense. If someone just CHOPS off your arm without KILLING you, does THAT make them NOBLE? This is IRRELEVANT to the discussion about Africa.[/b] [QUOTE] And even though many Indian Americans are the MAJORITY of the populations in South, they still occupy the LOWEST rungs of the social ladder because of the HISTORY of domination by Spanish whites. [/QUOTE]That's true for ETHNIC INDIANS. Peoples that are outside Western Civilization, but things have being changing. Almost half Hispanic America was never conquered by the Spaniards, and in there Native Americans did not assimilate to society. Most of Natives that do assimilate reach the highest post. Many mixed and pure Native Americans have been presidents in Latin America. They are in all the possitions of life. [b] That is true. But MANY Native Americans are also rebels who have been FIGHTING against MIXED and relatively pure white Spanish descended rulers for a LONG time. Once again this is NOT a discussion about South American history this is a discussion about African Moors from BEFORE the Spanish invaded America. Anything about Spanish history in America is IRRELEVANT on the point about WHO the Moors were.[/b] [QUOTE] What is taking place in South America today is a POPULAR uprising of support for LEFTIST politicians who are MORE supportive of policies in support of the MAJORITY of the populations you mentioned. This would not BE NECESSARY if everything was as GOOD as you make it out to be. [/QUOTE]Latin America is complex. Poverty exist. Communism exist. But applying the racial ideology is just a simplification of things that distort reality. [b]Once again IRRELEVANT to the discussion of MOORS. [/b] [QUOTE] YOU are making statements that you cannot prove. North Africa is larger in size than ALL of North America. ALL North Africans do NOT look like WHITE Berbers. North Africans come in MANY colors and SOME are INDEED similar to "subsaharans". Likewise ALL subsaharans DONT LOOK THE SAME. Therefore MANY subsaharans look like North Africans because they are ALL Africans. [/QUOTE]I did not say they are uniform. I only say that North Africans is a group in between Europeans and Southern Africans. Isn't that true? [b] Why are you asking me? You should have YOUR OWN scientific evidence to back up YOUR OWN position. Anything else is an opinion and INVALID. [/b] [QUOTE] Remember, people to the SOUTH of the Sahara ALSO are descended from the original Saharan populations that were there before the Sahara dried up. Therefore, you are REINFORCING a FAKE distinction. Are Nordic Europeans REALLY that different from Southern Europeans? NO. [/QUOTE]Really? Do you really believe Southern Europeans are Germans. Please NOOOOO!!! [b] I never said that they were, but UNFORTUNATELY you dont understand that. But since you cannot COMPREHEND what I am saying, NOrdics and Southern Europeans ARE WHITE. Any distinction is based history, culture and ethnicity NOT SKIN COLOR. I thought you would understand that. The area of Europe from Spain to Germany could BOTH fit in North Africa. North Africa includes Mauretania, Niger, Chad and Sudan. Berbers exist in ALL of these countries to some degree. Therefore, just like you are against comparing all Europeans to Germans, we are against saying ALL North Africans are like Kabyle or Rif berbers. MORE SPECIFICALLY, while you keep PRONOUNCING that Spanish people identify with WHITE coastal berbers, the ALMORAVIDS were NOT white coastal berbers and included MANY muslims from other parts of North AFrica who were NOT WHITE. [/b] [QUOTE] Same for the INDIGENOUS Saharan Africans who ARE NOT mixed with Arabs and Europeans. YOU are equating MIXED Arab and European "WHITE" north Africans with ALL people from NOrth Africa. [/QUOTE]No. I am saying the Moors came from North Africa and a distintive people. [b] And I am saying that Mauretania is IN North Africa and many MOORS came from there and were NOT like WHITE Berbers on the COAST and were NOT mixed with anyone. They were BLACK Africans through and through. Not to mention the Moors in Niger as well as Senegal. [IMG]http://www.mytravelguide.com/g/maps/North-Africa-map.gif[/IMG] http://www.afropop.org/explore/show_region/ID/2 The IDEA the Moors are divided into WHITE Moors and BLACK Moors with BLACK Moors being slaves or subjects of WHITE Moors is a RECENT invetion by WHITE Supremacists of both ISLAMIC AND Christian denominations. Such CONCEPT S are PURELY related to the CURRENT attempts by WHITE ARABS to dominate ALL of North AFrica by EXTIRMINATING BLACK Aficans. The ORIGINAL Moors were BLACK. What YOU and OTHERS are preaching is RACISM in identifying MOORS with WHITE COASTAL BERBERS. I already showed you earlier how ARAB Beni Hilal tribes CONQUERED the Almoravids in Mauretania AFTER the Moors were expelled from Spain. The current RACIST policies of the Mauretanian government trace back to this period. The same goes for other Arab governments in North Africa. At some point the same will happen in Sudan when WHITE Arabs start migrating there to TAKE OVER from the BLACK Africans who call themselves ARAB now. White arabs are trying to establish a FAKE historical identity ALL OVER North AFrica, from Sudan to Egypt to Morrocco. THAT is why it is important to DENOUNCE the nonsense the people like you are talking about. This RACISM in ALL REALITY crosses national, religious and political boundaries and is another part of a program of WHITE supremacy being practiced by WHITES of ALL creeds and backgrounds. [/b] [QUOTE] Just think 1300 years ago the Aztec and Maya ruled South America and American Indians roamed the plains of North America. [/QUOTE]Well, Aztecs and Maya never ruled South America. They lived in Mesoamerica, in the frontier between North and Central America. For South America think on Incas, Tiahuanaco and Moches. [b] You are right about SOMETHING finally. That does not change the fact that Spanish conquistadors moved SOUTH to South America after CONQUERING the Aztecs.[/b] [QUOTE] These groups are NO longer present in the same way they were back then.[/QUOTE]Mayans are quite intact. They still speak Maya, and that helped the specialist to break the code of maya writing. [b] But they are NOT on top of economic and political power in Mexico[/b] [QUOTE] BLACK Africans have been in NORTH AFRICA since the beginning of time and MANY modern racists have been trying to FORCE these black Africans OUT of North Africa by inventing FAKE concepts to SEPARATE black Africans from North Africa. [/QUOTE]What's wrong with thinking they are an intermediate group. It is obvious they are in between Southern Europeans and Southern Africans. [b] Where is your proof? Are Mauretanians between Europeans and AFricans? As I said many MOORS CAME from Mauretania (land of the black faces) and were BLACK Africans.[/b] [QUOTE] Nubian, Berber and the Sahara are all FAKE barriers that have been created to DISTORT the history of BLACK Africans in North Africa. Nubian is a FAKE identity, because in ancient Egypt the Egyptians did not CALL anyone to the south NUBIAN. [/QUOTE]Some of that is true. I agree that Eurocentrism was a fact. But I am looking for reality, not dogmas. [b] I am GIVING you reality, you ignore it[/b] [QUOTE]They are not ALL mixed in the same amount. SOME are MORE mixed than others. ALL North AFricans dont look the same Berber is now PUSHED as some EXCLUSIVELY white group, IGNORING the fact that "Berber" is a linguistic term. All Berbers languages are really only LOOSELY related as being Afro Asiatic and only COASTAL Berbers are white and many are MIXED with Europeans and Arabs. [/QUOTE]It may be so. At least in Spain people has always now the Moors have some Black admixture. That's a characteristic of the Moors of any color. [b] All Moors were not the same color. ALL Moors were NOT MIXED. Some were PURE BLACK AFRICANS. [/b] [QUOTE] MODERN Souther Europeans WERENT THERE 1300 years ago, so they CANNOT speak of a people they did not see or interact with DIRECTLY. I have ALSO shown you that the names Marakkesch and Morroco derive from the word "moro" or "mara" meaning BLACK. This is from people who SAW the Moors we are talking about. What MODERN south Europeans see in MODERN North AFricans as MOORISH is irrelevant because this is over 400 years AFTER the fact. I also already said that ALL Moors were not BLACK, so there is no need for you to keep REITERATING a FALSE STRAWMAN argument. Look up the origin of the word Marrakesch and Morroco and you will SEE that it derives from a description of BLACK Africans and was NOT originated by Spanish, so what THEY define it as meaning is IRRELEVANT. [/QUOTE]Pushing Moors into the "Black history" is as forced as pushed them into the "white history". Why you do not accept Moors have been part of Western History since ancient times, and Southern Europeans do know who is and who is not a moor? [b] Moors are part of African, Muslim, Spanish and Berber history. Moors are ALSO part of BLACK history because MANY Moors were BLACK. It is YOU who keep trying to FORCE Moors to be ONLY WHITE and make them part of WHITE AFRICAN history as if North Africans CANT BE BLACK.[/b] [QUOTE] Also, phenotypically elongated Africans (aquiline noses, long faces, thinner lips) have existed in a WIDE swath of the Sahara from Morocco to Sudan and Ethiopia since ANCIENT times. [/QUOTE]Those are the people that Europeans believe are related. Don't you see it? [b] Related to WHO? ALL PEOPLE ON THE PLANET DERIVE FROM BLACK AFRICANS!!!!! Europeans derive from BLACK EAST AFRICANS NOT COASTAL WHITE BERBERS!!!! MODERN coastal white Berbers derive from Europeans. You are GETTING IT BACKWARDS.[/b] [QUOTE] WHO? Who are you talking about? ALL North Africans DO NOT LOOK LIKE Europeans! Only those who have a HISTORY of mixing with Europeans do.... [/QUOTE]Don't be silly, the influence is evident. It is even possible that Arabs and Europeans descend of Ethiopians as you may know. [b] The Ethiopians they descended from WERE BLACK.[/b] Later. I got tired. [b] I am sure you are, because this NONSENSE is tiring.[/b] KAWASHKAR [/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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