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OT: historical data from morocco
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by ausar: [QB] Doug M stated: [QUOTE]In general, from all of the research I have been doing, the issue of white identity is complex. Yes the ancient Libyans were sometimes depicted as white. However there were also ancient Libyans who were depicted as blacks. Also, modern LIbya and ancient LIbya are not the same and do not share the same boundaries. The issue of the ethnicity is clouded by racial, ethnic and religious terms as well as predjudices. Many of the modern white Berbers are really arabized clans of Berbers who have intermarried with Arab nomads. Many of the Berber clans who are still black are on the most extreme fringes of Morocco, physically and politically and this is what has allowed them to maintain their distinct identity. There is no point in denying that many groups have established an identiy in Northern Africa. However, the white berbers of Morocco and Algeria are only a small part of the total area of North Africa and do not represent all North Africans. THis is where I see the distortion of the facts. Some want to make the areas of Morocco and Northern Algeria into all of North Africa and they arent. LIkewise people want to play down the European ancestry of these white Berbers, to try and make them as African as the original black Africans from NOrth Africa, but they arent. They have more European ancestry than other Africans and this is why they look the way they do. It is obvious based on geography and history that this is the case, but many want to deny this for various reasons, including trying to claim all NOrth Africa as the exclusive domain for white Africans. This is no different that Afrikaaners trying to claim all South Africa as the exclusive domain of white Afrikaaners.[/QUOTE]Please read what I posted about the ancient Libyans. You simply regurgitated exactly what I said. Do you attribute the lightening of the Berbers to Arab invaders? Most Western scholars mistakenly think the Arab bedouins that migrated into North-western Africa actually darkened the inhabitants up. I am not very well versed on Greco-Roman discriptions or Arabic author descriptions of North-western Africans. Perhaps, you can post some of these authors. From a previous discusion on this forum we talked about the leuko-ethiopies[that is leukos[whites] with an Ethiopian culture described in Greco-Roman texts] so I believe these populations already existed alongside the darker populations of north-west Africa. What is not detailed enough is the Barbary pirates bondage of Christian Europeans. Slavery of Europeans was not outlawed untill the late 1800's. I believe that others on this board have presented genetic evidence that the matrilineal ancestry of many of the ''fair'' skinned modern Berbers come from Europe. Please don't quote me on the following because I don't have a firm grasp of population genetics. Although your pictures are well selected, many times you cannot tell how dark or light somebody is by black/white phtography. Many of the people in the pictures could be dark but how dark is questionable. Many of your claims are likewise unsubstaniated. What evidence do you have that the invading Arabs ran the ''black'' populatin of northern Africa out? Arab infiltration was more of a linguistic instead of demographic diffusion. Indeed, some areas like modern Libya have very little Berber speaking populations due to the Hilian invasion. The Hilal were brought into north-west Africa to decrease the power of native Berber caliphs. Libya is an exception to the rule. Even within Libya many of the nomadic groups intermingled with the Bani Hilal and other bedouins. The word iklan is found in the kel Tamelsheq[Tuareg] languages also meaning a slave. The term does not have a color conotation. Many Western ethnologist have taken the caste system of the Kel Tamelsheq out of proportion. Kel Tamelsheq caste does not differ much from Wolof,Mande or Fulani castes. Most don't mention that Western Africans predominate in Kel Tamelsheq castes as metal smiths. I am not certain with other Berber oral legends but all Tuareg Kels trace their lineage to Tin Hanan. She is both from southern Morocco and also the ancestress of most Kel Tamelsheq. Some Western archaeologist claimed to have found her remains in southern Morocco. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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