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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QB] ^Refined, and more complete response of the above, is provided below, as follows... [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: See Arredi 2004 for the moot TRMCA. [QUOTE] The TMRCAs for E3b (8.3KY, 95% CI 5.2–12.4 KY; or 14.4 KY, 95% CI 9.3–19.3 KY; table 2) and E3b2 (2.8–8.2 KY) should thus bracket the spread of E3b2 in North Africa. These times contrast sharply with estimates of 53 ± 21 KYA for the M35 lineage and 32 ± 11 KYA for the M81 lineage, by use of a constant-sized population model, or 30 ± 6 and 19 ± 4 KYA, respectively, by use of an expanding population model (Bosch et al. 2001). They are, however, more in accordance with times of 26.5 KYA (without a useful CI) for the M215 mutation ... and 5.6 KYA for M81 (Cruciani et al. 2004) or of 29.2 ± 4.1 KYA for M35 and 8.6 ± 2.3 KYA for M81 (Semino et al. 2004). [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: Linguist propose taMazight speech to have originated somewhere near Darfur 8000 years ago (E3b-M35; TMRCA ~6300 BCE) spreading west by northwest then back east but to further north than its point of origin. This would coincide with the Gafsa (Capsian) industry/culture.[/QUOTE]By E3b-M35, are you referring to its derivative E-M81? That date for E3b sounds questionable.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Arredi et al. have lower bound and upper bound expansion ages, each of which have their corresponding confidence intervals; these intervals are there, precisely because they need to be taken into account. Once taken into account, the age provided for E3b doesn’t deviate much from the general understanding that E3b originated in the Upper Paleolithic, and expanded northward within the vicinity of by ca. 24 ky ago or so. [i]The geographic and quantitative analyses of haplogroup and microsatellite diversity is strongly suggestive of a northeastern African origin of E-M78, with a corridor for bidirectional migrations between northeastern and eastern Africa (at least 2 episodes between 23.9–17.3 ky and 18.0–5.9 ky ago), trans-Mediterranean migrations directly from northern Africa to Europe (mainly in the last 13.0 ky), and flow from northeastern Africa to western Asia between 20.0 and 6.8 ky ago.[/i]- Cruciani et al. Heck M78, the derivative of M35, has expansion dates of 6ky ago or so [and older] in the “Near East”[ Semino et al. 2004, Cruciani et al. 2004, and Underhill et al.]. Naturally, M78 cannot be contemporaneous with its [i]father[/i] lineage E-M35 in initial expansion ages - this understanding is consistently communicated in the bulk of genetic studies referenced herein. Example: [i]“The subdivision of E-M78 in the six common major clades revealed a pronounced geographic structuring (table 1, fig. 2): Haplogroup E-V65 and the paragroups E-M78* and E-V12* were observed mainly in northern Africa, Haplogroup E-V13 was found in high frequencies in Europe, and Haplogroup E-V32 was observed at high frequencies only in eastern Africa. The only Haplogroup showing a wide geographic distribution was E-V22, relatively common in north-eastern and eastern Africa, but also found in Europe, western Asia, up to southern Asia (table 1, fig.2).” “On the basis of robust phylogeographic considerations, an eastern African origin has been proposed for E-M215 (Underhill et al. 2001; Cruciani et al. 2004), with a coalescence time of 22.4ky (95% C.I. 20.9-23.9ky; recalculated from Cruciani et al. 2004, see Materials and Methods). A north-eastern African origin for Haplogroup E-M78 implies that E-M215 chromosomes were introduced in north-eastern Africa from eastern Africa in the Upper Paleolithic, between 23.9ky ago (the upper bound for E-M215 TMRCA in eastern Africa) and 17.3ky ago (the lower bound for E-M78 TMRCA here estimated, fig. 1). In turn, the presence of E-M78 chromosomes in eastern Africa can be explained through a back migration of chromosomes that had acquired the M78 mutation in north-eastern Africa. The nested arrangement of Haplogroups E-V12 and E-V32 defines an upper and lower bound for this episode, i.e. 18ky and 5.9ky, respectively. These were probably not massive migration/s, since the present high frequencies of E-V12 chromosomes in eastern Africa are entirely accounted for by E-V32, which most likely underwent subsequent geographically restricted demographic expansions involving well differentiated molecular types (fig. 3A). Conversely, the absense of E-V12* chromosomes in eastern Africa is compatible with loss by drift.”[/i] - Cruciani et al. 2007 [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: As can be seen in the table a few posts above, Bosch makes E3b2-M81 out to be the youngest. And this is one of the discrepencies, along with the total disagreement between the four referenced geneticists on the involved TMRCAs, that led me to call it a "guessing game." But there's more in Bosch 2001 contrary to the status quo here. [QUOTE] Assuming a constant population size, an infinite-sites model, and population subdivision between NW Africa and Iberia, we used Genetree (Griffiths and Tavare´1994) to estimate the age of M35 (giving H36) to be 53,000±21,000 years ago (ya), that of M78 (giving H35) to be 16,000±10,000 ya, and that of M81 (giving H38) to be 32,000±11,000 ya. Under the more likely condition of population growth (Thomson et al. 2000), the respective estimated ages were 30,000±6,000 ya, _7,600±6,000 ya, and 19,000±4,000 ya. Hence, the expansion that brought the ancestors of H35 and H38 (or even those haplotypes themselves) into NW Africa could have happened at any time after 30,000 ya, and, more specifically, it could have happened during the [i][b][URL=http://www.]Upper Paleolithic[/URL][/b][/i]. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mystery Solver: ... most of the studies regularly cited here and elsewhere. E3b2 is consistently shown as the younger lineage of the two.[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]If Bosch et al. posit a younger age for M81 than that of E-M35 and E-M78, then this would be in agreement with many of the other cited sources, not in disagreement. As for the Bosch et al.'s supposed "Upper Paleolithic" extraction of "Berber" paternal lineages, I've already taken issue with that multiple times now, including in that thread you started about 'Tamazight language being Afrasan'. Outside of Bosch et al., I've rarely seen genetic studies posit an Upper Paleolithic expansion age for E-M81, as opposed to being of a Neolithic one. [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: I don't get it. Can you please rephrase your question? Meshwesh means the Meshwesh of AE record who moving from Tunisian/Libyan Syrtis forced every ethny along the way to join them as they marched on Egypt. Their movement was from west to east c.1250 just as I wrote. Where are you getting a westward movement of Meshwesh from? [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mystery Solver: [QUOTE] al Takruri: [URL=http://www]The [i]Meshwesh[/i] moved from the [i]west to the east[/i] near 1250 BCE.[/URL] Then, some 500 years later. Herodotus records the westward migration of his Libyans (E3b2-M81 backflow?).[/QUOTE]If by Meshwesh you are referring to coastal northwest African Tamazight groups, which study are you going by, regarding the westward movement and occurring in the said timeframe? [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]Technicality on my part. What I meant to ask was: What study are you going by, concerning the west-to-eastward movement of the Meshwesh, [i]presuming[/i] that you are equating the Meshwesh with coastal northwest African Tamazight groups? [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: When read in context and quoted in full its the spread of "Berber" language that[list=1] [*]started at Darfur [*]went west by northwest across the Sahara [*]then back east but to further north (slightly inland from the littoral) [/list] This can easily be seen in the map accompanying Williamson. In it one can see "Berber" reaching the north of Egypt by two different routes. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mystery Solver: As for Northwest African expansion being older than East, implicated above by the back-migration eastward in this: [i]spreading west by northwest then back east but to further north than its point of origin.[/i] ^Would be inconsistent with this: ... [/QUOTE][/QUOTE]I’ve grasped the full context, but as cited in the genetic study extracts that I posted, there is no evidence that coastal North East African Tamazight speakers are younger than those from coastal North West Africa, which was implied in your original post, by way of migration from first Saharan/sahel East Africa in westward direction [and reaching coastal north west Africa], and from thereon an eastward movement occurred, reaching [b]coastal[/b] north east Africa. For instance, when you said: [i]spreading west by northwest then back east but to [b]further north[/b] than its point of origin[/i] -al Takruri ^This implies that there were no Tamazight speakers already inhabiting coastal northeast Africa, prior to the ‘eastward’ migration of coastal northwest African Tamazight speakers from west Africa [pending clarification to the contrary]. I haven’t seen any genetic evidence backing up such a scenario. Genetic evidence for such would demonstrate older expansion ages for west African Tamazight groups than those in coastal Northeast Africa; however to date, I’ve seen genetic evidence to the contrary. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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