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OT: A million years of African presence in Northern Europe.
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mustafino: [QB] Yeah, I notice you are to illiterate to read all of this. [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mustafino: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Mustafino: [qb] [QUOTE]How does it help you that their color kept changing after they diverged? The question to you was where, in the statement you referenced above does Jablonski make a statement that the "common ancestor" was of "medium complexion"?[/QUOTE]Medium as in somewhere in between the two. As in both were changing and I doubt either change was drastically faster. [QUOTE]This is descredited by Shriver: Note that we did not find [b]many [/b]genes with signatures of natural selection on the West African branch and thus *no [b]clear [/b]indication* that the West Africans have gotten darker [b]since [/b]their separation from the East Asians and Europeans.[/QUOTE]Speculative, not a claim of fact, and he states that some where found, just not many, and still only addresses after OOA. Nor does it prove that all Africans were darker at the time. [QUOTE]From the reconstructions we have been able to do (using molecular and other comparative data), darkly pigmented skin was the original state for all members of the genus Homo (that is, for our lineage beginning about 2 million years ago). [b]It is impossible to say exactly how dark this was[/b], but it was [b]probably [/b]much darker than a "medium hue" and [b]approached [/b]those seen in equatorial Africa today.[/QUOTE]Another possible interpretation: [QUOTE](1) When Jablonski wrote: "...positive selection to maximize the melanin content of their skin since they diverged from Khoi San stock," she was suggesting that the common ancestor's skin tone was between Bantu and Khoisan. (2) When Jablonski wrote, "...much darker than a medium hue..." she was suggesting that they were much darker than Arabs, Berbers, or Afghanis (who are "medium hue" between Bantu and Norwegian). That is what most Europeans mean when they say "medium hue."[/QUOTE]I highly doubt that Djehuti told her that we were speaking medium between KhoiSan and Bantu. But either way, even if she did believe the common ancestor "approached" (Which is not the same as being the same color so still lighter) Bantu coloration, she has given no explanation that makes sense as to why the KhoiSan would have lightened so much. Going South? The latitude is no farther away from the equator than Aborigines, dark skinned Dravidians in Bangladesh, or Dark skinned Oromo in Egypt. Let alone the Dark Tasmanians which were further south still. Neither has she shown evidence of any type that the Sandawe are a back migration from down South. [IMG]http://www.backintyme.com/forum/127/tropicalcolors.jpg[/IMG] Even in the least solar exposure months, The Kalahari recieves more solar radiation than those other latitudes. [IMG]http://www.sunwize.com/images/world_map_04.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://sedac.ciesin.org/ozone/maps/latest_eptn.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Map_of_skin_hue_equi3.png[/IMG] So much for the KhoiSan got significantly lighter because of lack of light exposure. Of course if we make that argument, we can also argue the original Egyptians were lighter as well. Same distance from the equator. [QUOTE]There are many SAN who are already *darker* than the 'contrived medium' you propose. [/QUOTE]Sure, but not the one you showed. Who said all San had to be lighter than the medium? [IMG]http://www.backintyme.com/forum/127/khoisan1vsmedium.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE]Does not change any of the FACTS presented about dark (brown) skin being the common color (range of color) among Africans and the original condition for all humanity.[/QUOTE]Agreed. [QUOTE]This isn't quite true either. Black is a social label that has everything to do with dark coloration of skin.[/QUOTE]Not really. [QUOTE]As i've pointed out before - color is largely and illusion. [/QUOTE]Not an illusion. It is perception; the mind interpreting cues based on the wavelengths of light it receives. [QUOTE] In physics there are only two general references to visible color - red and blue. Reddish light has long wavelength. Blueish light has short wavelength.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Spectral colors The familiar colors of the rainbow in the spectrum named for the Latin word for appearance or apparition by Isaac Newton in 1671 include all those colors that can be produced by visible light of a single wavelength only, the pure spectral or monochromatic colors. The color table at right shows approximate frequencies (in terahertz) and wavelengths (in nanometers) for various pure spectral colors. The wavelengths are measured in vacuum (see refraction). The color table should not be interpreted as a definitive list the pure spectral colors form a continuous spectrum, and how it is divided into distinct colors is a matter of culture, taste, and language. A common list identifies six main bands: red, orange, yellow, green, blue, and violet. Newton's conception included a seventh color, indigo, between blue and violet but most people do not distinguish it, and most color scientists do not recognize it as a separate color; it is sometimes designated as wavelengths of 420440 nm. The chart shown here, however, does identify a seventh main color band: cyan, located between green and blue. The intensity of a spectral color may alter its perception considerably; for example, a low-intensity orange-yellow is brown, and a low-intensity yellow-green is olive-green. As discussed in the section on color vision, a light source need not actually be of one single wavelength to be perceived as a pure spectral color. The color of an object depends both on physics and on perception. Physically, surfaces can be said to have the color of the light reflecting off them, which depends on the spectrum of the incident illumination and on the reflectance spectrum of the surface, as well as potentially on the lighting and viewing angles. However, a viewer's perception of the object color depends not only on the reflected light spectrum, but also on a host of contextual cues, such that an object's color tends to be perceived as relatively constant, that is, relatively independent of the lighting spectrum, viewing angle, etc. This effect is known as color constancy. * Opaque objects that do not reflect specularly (which tend to have rough surfaces) have their color determined by which wavelengths of light they scatter more and which they scatter less (with the light that is not scattered being absorbed). If objects scatter all wavelengths, they appear white. If they absorb all wavelengths, they appear black. * Opaque objects that specularly reflect light of different wavelengths with different efficiencies look like mirrors tinted with colors determined by those differences. An object that reflects some fraction of impinging light and absorbs the rest may look black but also be faintly reflective; examples are black objects coated with layers of enamel or lacquer. The ability of the human eye to distinguish colors is based upon the varying sensitivity of different cells in the retina to light of different wavelengths. The retina contains three types of color receptor cells, or cones. One type, relatively distinct from the other two, is most responsive to light that we perceive as violet, with wavelengths around 420 nm. (Cones of this type are sometimes called short-wavelength cones, S cones, or, misleadingly, blue cones.) The other two types are closely related genetically and chemically. One of them (sometimes called long-wavelength cones, L cones, or, misleadingly, red cones) is most sensitive to light we perceive as yellowish-green, with wavelengths around 564 nm; the other type (sometimes called middle-wavelength cones, M cones, or misleadingly, green cones) is most sensitive to light perceived as green, with wavelengths around 534 nm. [b]Light, no matter how complex its composition of wavelengths, is reduced to three color components by the eye.[/b] For each location in the visual field, the three types of cones yield three signals based on the extent to which each is stimulated. These values are sometimes called tristimulus values. Black is the shade of objects that do not reflect light in any part of the visible spectrum. Scientifically black is not a hue (color); a black object absorbs all the colors of the visible spectrum and reflects none of them, this is sometimes confused with black being called 'a mixture of all colors' but that is not the case. Sometimes black is described as an "achromatic color"; in practice black can be considered a color, e.g., the black cat or black paint. Black can be defined as the visual impression experienced in directions from which no visible light reaches the eye. (This makes a contrast with whiteness, the impression of any combination of colors of light that equally stimulates all three types of color-sensitive visual receptors.) Pigments that absorb light rather than reflect it back to the eye "look black". A black pigment can, however, result from a combination of several pigments that collectively absorb all colors. If appropriate proportions of three primary pigments are mixed, the result reflects so little light as to be called "black". This provides two superficially opposite but actually complementary descriptions of black. Black is the lack of all colors of light, or an exhaustive combination of multiple colors of pigment. Technically speaking, white is not a color at all, but rather the combination of all the colors of the visible light spectrum. It is sometimes described as an achromatic color, like black. As a misnomer, however, white is the color of things that reflect light of all parts of the visible spectrum equally and are not dull . The color has high brightness and has no hue. The impression of white light can be created by mixing, via a process called additive mixing, appropriate intensities of the primary color spectrum: red, green and blue, but it must be noted that the illumination provided by this technique has significant differences from that produced by incandescence. Brown, when used as a general term, is a color which is a dark orange, red or rose, of very low intensity. Some pale orange and yellow colors of lower saturation are called light browns. Brown paint can be produced by adding black or their complementary colors to rose, red, orange, or yellow colored paint. As a color of low intensity it is a tertiary color in the original technical sense: a mix of the three subtractive primary colors is brown if the cyan content is low. Brown exists as a color perception only in the presence of a brighter color contrast: orange, red, or rose objects are still perceived as such if the general illumination level is low, despite reflecting the same amount of red or orange light as a brown object would in normal lighting conditions. [URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown#Shades_of_brown_color_comparison_chart][b]Brown Shades comparison chart[/b][/URL] [/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Before physics it was also observed that if you took long wave length, short wave length and intermediate wave length light....you could create any colore illusion. [/QUOTE]Not an illusion. Just perception. The types of wavelengths and intensity the eye is receiving. Color is the interpretation of the object or space viewed and how it interacts with light. [QUOTE]Note: Black and White are in this respect....not even colors at all. Absolute black can be acheived into two ways: 1) when there is no photon [light] energy - there is pitch black. [note: not as simple as you think, because heat is a form of electromagnetic energy - and thus infrared light can be seen which means that and object giving off heat is not absorbing all light even it what we commonly call *pitch black* conditions] 2) when light energy is absorbed then there is blackness by degree. the more efficent the absorbtion the more 'black' the result. Technically you can only acheive absolute black by absorbing all light energy and no human pigment does that. [/QUOTE]You got that right. [QUOTE]A final fact about: EuMelanin, which actually relates to why 'black' is a common ethnic term, and brown or yellow and red are not as common. EuMelanin *is* a black pigment which is very common in nature. A ravens feathers have melanin. Melanin means black because Eu-melanin is *nearly* absolute black. [there is also a reddish phaeo-Melanin which plays a role in reddishness] [/QUOTE]Is it? [IMG]http://www.apsnet.org/education/IllustratedGlossary/PhotosI-M/melanin.jpg[/IMG] Just looks like very dark pigmentation. And then you have skin color itself without the melanin. See, your skin color is not just melanin, but melanin combined with its casing. Which skin tends to be of a pinkish rose color. [IMG]http://www.afrikaansealbinos.nl/Images/thumbBIG_verbrand-meisje.JPG[/IMG] Now class, repeat after me "Brown, when used as a general term, is a color which is a dark orange, red or rose" Oh yeah a dark pinkish color. Oh wait. That is brown. [QUOTE]Black Eu-Melanin does not vary in color. It only varies in amount. The color that you achieve in skin, scales or feathers that have melanin depend upon how much melanin is present, and what else it is mixed with. [/QUOTE]And what material surrounds it. [QUOTE]When we talk about people having brown or yellow or red skin, we are really discussing nearly white - semi translucent skin, with red blood tinting it from underneath the surface [which causes pinkish coloration], and black melanin pigment in variant degrees coating it.[/QUOTE]Class repeat after me "Brown can be produced by adding black or their complementary colors to rose, red, orange, or yellow." Oh, wait, that pinkish skin becomes brown? [QUOTE]Traditionally human cultures have not known how skin color works - but intuitively many cultures have understood that blackness exists and as darkening process that would approach though seldom acheive and absolute. [/QUOTE]More like intuitively, they understood, the variations of red between white to black (pink to brown) [QUOTE]This is why many shades of darkness have come to be known as black.[/QUOTE]Hardly. They just are comparing darkness with darkness. But when something is not dark, they consider it brown. [QUOTE]And it's why the word we use for skin color 'melanin' means black, and meant it even before anyone 'knew' how melanin worked. [/QUOTE]melanos meant both black or dark colored. Not just Black. Furthermore [QUOTE]Broadly, melanin is any of the polyacetylene, polyaniline, and polypyrrole "blacks" [b]and "browns"[/b] or their mixed copolymers. The most common form of biological melanin is a polymer of either or both of two monomer molecules: indolequinone, and dihydroxyindole carboxylic acid. Melanin exists in the plant, animal and protista kingdoms, where it serves as a pigment. The presence of melanin in the archaea and bacteria kingdoms is an issue of ongoing debate amongst researchers in the field.[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] In terms of human pigmentation there is little logical distinction between illusions of brown and black.[/QUOTE]Black, no hue. Brown, reds and yellows in the darker spectrum. One is on the money, the other is not. [QUOTE]Whether you like it, or not, that is reflected in the reality of the general use of the term black to describe dark skinned peoples. That's why the AE used the term that way - that's the way most cultures who have used the term black have used it throughout history.[/QUOTE]You have yet to show someone that was a lighter shade of brown calling themselve Black. The great Black Kemwer is depicted as Black. The lady Kemsit is depicted as Black. Where are your depictions of the medium Blacks being called Black? [QUOTE]Yonis: Did you know that many AE dictionaries have no word for 'brown'?[/QUOTE]But they did for red and yellow. A dark red or yellow person would be brown. Now if they got so far as to almost show no hue, then they would be black. By the way, many of the gods were depicted as yellow. [QUOTE]This doesn't mean there isn't one - but brown was simply not very important to the AE. They saw the world differently than you.[/QUOTE]And different than you as well. [/qb][/QUOTE]indeed [IMG]http://www.islandmix.com/backchat/images/smilies/u-bata.gif[/IMG] [/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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