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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] This sounds more like it. We can add to this the fact that only dark brown and red brown Tehenu appear in Old Kingdom representations of "Libyans" with features and hairstyles of later lighter complexioned Libyans in the tomb of Seti.[/qb][/QUOTE]The fact that all early representations of Libyans as being of the same complexion of Egyptians has been made time and again in this forum. [QUOTE][qb]Your former characterization of such people as "mulatto" like would thus seem appropriate. This would also explain why the attire of modern Fulani/Fulata (Woodabe) wear very similar "attire of the late Libyans on the tomb of Seti I" (according to Donald Consentino, Maria Van Offelen and earlier scholars). [/qb][/QUOTE]Takruri addressed this in several threads discussing the origin of the Fulani, most recently [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=006432]here[/URL]. While there is similarity in dress there are also obvious differences as well as differences in georgraphic range and language between the Wodaabe proper and the ancient Libyans. [QUOTE][qb] According to Manfred Bietak, the appearance of the flying gallop frescos in Egypt only date from the New Kingdom. Such frescoes were associated with Thera and Minoan culture. See - Charis: essays in honor of Sara A. Immerwahr by Ann Chapin p. 187 2004 Interestingly this art is found in places like Tassili with the Tifinagh, and "stick head" figures and bi-triangular figures similar to those found in Nubia. The bi-triangular and double axe schema is found everywhere in Tuareg culture today in headgear, jewelry and elsewhere. The origination of the flying gallop is thought to be associated in Syria and is associated with the Hyksos as well as early Shaft graves of Mycenae. These ties may give credence to the Tuareg legends of their origins as descendants of Canaanites or Phoenicians who conquered Syria and Egypt advanced toward the Maghreb. [IMG]http://i47.tinypic.com/358pifr.jpg[/IMG] Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop" style from Tassili [IMG]http://i45.tinypic.com/205pk74.jpg[/IMG] Rock art exhibiting "flying gallop", bi-triangularisme, Tifinagh typical of late rock art [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/1zfhoab.jpg[/IMG] Bi-Triangular double axe still forms part of Tuareg headgear (Aumelidden/Lamtuna of Niger). The double-axe, composed of two crescent shaped blades, is thought to have been an early symbol of the Mother Goddess. [/qb][/QUOTE]This is the first I've heard of the bi-trangular shape being found in Nubia. I know that it was present in Tasili as well as other places in the Sahara. Whether this geometric symbol is related to the Minoan double axe remains to be seen, however there [i]are[/i] Old Kingdom tombs featuring decorations in the form of the double-axe. Whether this is due to Minoan influence or vice-versa-- that the Minoans got it from the Egyptians remains to be seen. [QUOTE][qb] The ancestors of the Iforas Tuareg or "Ait Ifren", for example, are recorded as Chana or Djana (Khian) son of Yahyah son of Salatis or Isletan son of Warsak son of Dari son of Chacfoun (Apachnas) son of Bendouad or Adidat (Hadid) son of Imla son of Guerad son of Maghdis son of Herek son of Mazigh a great grandson of Badyan son of Canaan. recorded by Ibn Khaldun and found in MacMichael's History of the Arabs vol. II and other places. Elsewhere it is said Ifren was son of Islitan, son of Misra, son of Zakiya, son of Warsik son of Adidat, son of Djana was through Mazigh a descendant Canaan of Ham. Several of the above chiefs are undoubtedly the same as documented on Hyksos scarabs. The known Hyksos rulers or shepherd-kings recorded by Eusebius, Josephus, Syncellus and even Leo Africanus, included Salatis, Khyan (Janias of Josephus), Apachnas or Apopi I(Chacfoun) whom Herodotus claims was Epaphus and Archles (Herak). These people took over the Aegean as well according to tradition. Arabs record them as "Amalekites" or Himyarite kings of the Adites. They mention Adidat or Douad as Chedid. While Salatis is well known as Salih. [IMG]http://i46.tinypic.com/whcn83.jpg[/IMG] Ifuras Tuareg of Mali The name Masikha or Mashek and Misrah and Misramah are well known names of ancient Yemenite tribes associated with the Mahra whom Hamdani and Khaldun equate with the Adites. See R. Khanams Encylopaedic Ethnography of Middle East and Central Asia vol. 1 p. 66 on the Masikha. No doubt their remnant in Syria were the Ph'anakes of Manetho and "Phoenicians" that Josephus claims were the "Amalek shepherds". [/qb][/QUOTE]I thought the Tuareg were a matrilineal society. Is such a paternal genealogy rooted in actual Berber tradition or was it an Islamized tradition?? If you are postulating a connection to Hyksos are you suggesting that the Hyksos kings and chieftains did more than just make contact with Libyans? Are you aware of predynastic connections between Libyans and Canaanites via the Egyptian Delta, that was suggested by some scholars? If so, is that what you are stating? [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Neith-Athena: [qb] I have not had time to post here in ages and have only read some posts once in a great while when schoolwork allowed me to. Regarding my previous post, it was a misunderstanding on my part based on my quickly perusing EgyptSearch history when I first discovered this great forum. Anyway, regarding the bi-triangular double axe, I learned about it when I went to Greece, including Crete, two summers ago. Historians of the region do not really know what it stands for, even though one British scholar at a site that my group and I visited on Crete conjectured that it had to do with mother goddesses. Takruri and other veteran posters on African migrations to Greece, is this possibly a link between the Tuareg or ancient Berbers and the ancient Minoans? [/qb][/QUOTE]Not only the Minoans but Mycenae, but the Aegean in general. [/qb][/QUOTE]For more on African influence in the Aegean, you can look [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=15;t=000601;p=2]here[/URL]. [QUOTE][qb] I am not certain about the wide range of Berber-speakers and it is important to remember what Berbers were described as until a few hundred years ago. But, I personally have never ever seen a true Berber that wasn't tropically adapted. That is why most still have deep brown complexions like their Afar Ethiopian, Watutsi, Woodabe, Rendili, Somali relatives. Many are in fact superbly adapted to super hot arid climate they apparently emerged from possessing ultra long limb proportions and ultradolichocephaly. The answer to where Berbers received these adaptations is the answer to where Nilotes originated. [/qb][/QUOTE]As many have noted, the 'Berber' languages proper share a common origin with Egyptian and other Afrasian languages which lie somewhere in Saharan to Sub-Saharan East Africa. I believe Evergreen himself noted that proto-Berber may have arisen in the Sudan. As such tropical adaptations being the norm and not the exception is no surprise. [QUOTE][qb] The whole question of white or near white complexioned "indigenous Africans" in the Sahara in ancient prehistoric times is speculative and pushing matters since there is no evidence of groups of indigenous "whites" in Africa, except for a few incidences of Moon faced women in rock art which may have been stylistic. Archeology has shown from settlements of Greeks or peoples of Sicilian origin after the beginning of the iron age on coastal north Africa Kabyle area (between Algeria and Tunisia). Is this indigenous? There was movement or trickle of lateral headed peoples into northern Egypt between the 2nd and 6th dynasties which has long been known. But, neither archeology nor physical anthropological evidence attests to an early indigenous presence of "white" groups. As this is not the first time you are posting these questions I would like to hear what evidence has been produced aside from this that has shown such a presence. The genetic evidence certainly doesn't prove otherwise. Egyptian tomb paintings haven't shown otherwise. There is also the problem of when the iron age and New kingdom actually began and the dating of the tomb of Seti showing fair-skinned Libyans, as more recent alternative chronologies have dated the New Kingdom much later than conventional or traditional dating. I believe fair-skinned Libyans were basically early Africans that had been modified or lightened by the presence of iron age European mercenaries or "sea people" probably dating after the start of the New Kingdom. Perhaps modified like the Tuareg group below who've also absorbed Syrians and other peoples in recent times (according to Bornu manuscripts). [IMG]http://i48.tinypic.com/i23ep3.jpg[/IMG] My point in bringing up Hyksos origins was to show that the name Mazikh or Imazigh from which it has been suggested the name "Mashwesh" was derived is of Hyksos i.e. Syro-Arabian Meluchha or Amlukh (Hyksos) or Musuri origin as were the dark-skinned people first and still called Masikh in Arabia. The appearance of fair-skinned people among North African Mazikh, known as "Ethiopians" even in Roman texts - as I have mentioned more than once on Egyptsearch forum - must mean that there was some recent iron age admixture of some of the Mazikh with non-African proto-Greeks or sea peoples. That is if the name Mashwesh truly is a version of "Mazigh". [/qb][/QUOTE]I believe you are getting closer to heart of the matter here. It was Takruri and Ausar who pointed out on several occasions that during their colonization of North Africa, the Greeks spoke of a people called 'Leuco-aethiopies'. These white ethiopians had to have come from somewhere in Europe originally. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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