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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by alTakruri: [qb] There were no white Gaetuli. Will check into it further but Ptolemy while mentioning Gaetulia only gives notice of MelanoGaetuli. He does not know any other people simply called Gaetuli or who have Gaetuli in their name. I take it that MelanoGaetuli and Gaetuli are one and the same people unless there is an ancient account that specifically lists the two of them.[/qb][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by dana marniche: [qb] The word Melanogaetuli is used by Ptolemy for the ancient Berber inhabitants of the Wedh Regh or the province of Constantine. They are next to the Pharusii and are called Nigritae by other writers. If there were Gaetuli or Mauri, other than black ones there should be some ancient reference to them. While we do read about LeucoEthiops we don't read about LeucoGetuli. Instead we find Procopius stating that the Gaitules were ancestors to the Masaesyles and other Mauri trained in Numidia, and earlier Juvenal refers to the Gaetuli as "a Mauri" "so black you'd rather not run into him at midnight." Josephus makes the Gaetuli the kinsmen of the "Judadaeans a nation of western Ethiopians" and the Astoborans or peoples of the blue Nile or river Astaboras. Josephus Antiquites, Chapter 6. So it is apparent the Gaetuli whom were the largest of "Libyan" tribes were quite black or any case "Abyssinian" in appearance. Does Ptolemy speak of other types of Gaetuli? Juvenal in fact uses the phrase "nigri Mauri". That doesn't mean some of the Mauri were not black. In the 2nd and 3rd century other individuals like Silicius Italicus say the word "Mauri" was in Greek a synonym for "Niger" and later St. Isidore of the 6th century says similarly, adding the "Mauri" meant blackness and states "the Mauri" were "black as night". (see Book XIXxxiii7 The Etymologies of Isidore of Seville - by Steven A. Barney published 2007. p. 386) Later a much quoted Viking epic states "Mauri is the same as Negro" and "Mauritania is Negro-land". This is not exageration. This is why later on Berbers along the coasts are designated "blacks" in Arab writings instead of by Arab words that would mean light or medium brown or colored in the West. This is why Ibn Butlan before the 11th c. calls the women from the major Berber tribes of the coast of North Africa "black" instead of golden colored like the Beja who are are more like the modern inhabitants of the Wed Regh. Maures and Getules are otherwise only described as people were the "reddish" black color of the tribes of "Indi" in Africa stretching to Oman and the Indus whom in the time of Eustathius and Philostorgius claim included the Axumitae, Adulitae (people of Adulis) or Abyssinians, Taieni (Tayyi) and Homeritae (Himyarites), Buga (Begawi) and other obviously "Ethiopic" people. Those are 5 of the 9 nations of the Indi listed by Eustathius. Contrary to what some people have tried to promote, in the time of the Romans the word Mauri referred only to "the black person" and as Martial said a man "with woolly hair". The phrase "Erembi Nigri" is used for the Erembi near Gades in the Iberian peninsula that doesn't mean there were Erembi that were not black. As Snowden rightly states "Mauri" was at times used by Romans as a synonym for "Ethiopian". The word Mauri is used with numerous tribes in Numidia and Mauritania. The word Mauri also did not mean Mauritanian. We have the Mauri Mazikes, Mauri Bavares or Babars, Mauri Baqautes and Mauri Mazikes and Mauri Gensani. While other tribes living in Mauretania - Armeni, Phrygi, Vandali etc. are not prefixed by the word Mauri. [/qb][/QUOTE]I see. So 'Melano' was merely used as a prefix of emphasis to drive the point that these people were black the same way other tribes had the prefix 'Mauri' added to their names. And it is the Gaetuli who were also called 'Nigritai'. I thought it was the Garamantes who were called this. I wish an ancient map showing all these North African peoples west of Egypt were posted here... Nevermind, I just realized the map Takruri posted has all the peoples and their territories listed; the letters are just too small for me to read clearly! [/QB][/QUOTE]
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