posted
Hi, I'm studying hieroglphs and I've got the part of the offering formula where it goes 'upon which a god lives', which is represented by 'ankh neter im'. I get the 'ankh' and 'neter' signs, but can you tell me what 'im' stands for in this context? I've looked it up and the online dictionaries say 'im' means 'there' or 'therein', so I don't see how it can form part of 'upon which a god lives'. My head hurts. Can you help? Cheers, Jeff
$sonomod$ Member # 16818
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The PHaroahs have been dead for 3 thousand plus years, what difference does it make now?
Burzacott Member # 16965
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Because some people think about more than who's going to win the football and scratching that next itch. Cheers, Jeff
$sonomod$ Member # 16818
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quote:Originally posted by Burzacott: Because some people think about more than who's going to win the football and scratching that next itch. Cheers, Jeff
Thats what academic books are for, volunteering, growing a garden, building an actual relationship which makes those itches more intense, and non-media hobbies.
Can't believe aussi dudes are so shallow that the only choice beyond football, booze and babes is a dead language of an oppressive regime.
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by Burzacott: Hi, I'm studying hieroglphs and I've got the part of the offering formula where it goes 'upon which a god lives', which is represented by 'ankh neter im'. I get the 'ankh' and 'neter' signs, but can you tell me what 'im' stands for in this context? I've looked it up and the online dictionaries say 'im' means 'there' or 'therein', so I don't see how it can form part of 'upon which a god lives'. My head hurts. Can you help? Cheers, Jeff
Burzacott, ignore Sonomod in his bad mood.
I'm not one of the specialists here in Mdu-Neter (hieroglyphs) but according to the translation you just gave me, ankh neter im basically means something like 'god lives therein'.
$sonomod$ Member # 16818
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Burzacott: Hi, I'm studying hieroglphs and I've got the part of the offering formula where it goes 'upon which a god lives', which is represented by 'ankh neter im'. I get the 'ankh' and 'neter' signs, but can you tell me what 'im' stands for in this context? I've looked it up and the online dictionaries say 'im' means 'there' or 'therein', so I don't see how it can form part of 'upon which a god lives'. My head hurts. Can you help? Cheers, Jeff
Burzacott, ignore Sonomod in his bad mood.
I'm not one of the specialists here in Mdu-Neter (hieroglyphs) but according to the translation you just gave me, ankh neter im basically means something like 'god lives therein'.
I am a she!
Not in a bad mood, but it ticks me off the only interest foreigners have in Egypt is a regime that is long dead and gone.
Then the obessession with race starts in and it gets really weird.
Its like telling a friend not to snort their first line of cocaine, but in this instance you Djehuti, are the dealer of samples.
Copeche?
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ Sorry, madame but you make no sense!
The reason why foreigners are most interested in Egypt's ancient history is that is what Egypt is famous for! Why do you call it a "regime" by the way??
zarahan Member # 15718
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Indeed. It should be reemphasized that the "obsession" with race did not start with blacks or alleged 'Afrocentrists' in the 1980s. Race obsession in Egyptian studies started over a century ago. It has been around a long time from the start, as noted even in the old 1967 article by conservative mainstream Egyptologists below, well before C.A. Diop came to widespread prominence via his "African origin of Egytian civilization" in 1974, or his important 1974 UNESCO Conference. ----------------------------
archaeologists Berry and Ucko (Genetical Change in Ancient Egypt, 1957): quote: "This is attested by the tendency in the past (summarised by Chantre 1904) to postulate all sorts of improbable racial amalgams in Egypt: mixtures of peoples representing a singular variety of groups (viz. Libyan, Caucasian, Arab, Pelasgian, Negro, Bushman, Mongol, Hamitic, Hamito-Semitic- even Red Indian and Australian aboriginal) were alleged to have migrated into the Nile Valley." . Indeed Keith (1905:92) complained that the literature at that time included hopeless contradictions of three, six, one and two races."
"[Egyptologists] are at pains to disclaim any Negro element in the Egyptian populations after the predynastic period except for the population of Sudanese Kerma.."
".. the basic weakness of all claims to distinguish or decry Negro elements on the basis of metrical analyses is the absence of any rigorous population comparisons to isolate particular featurers which can be described as negroid. It is typical of this unsatisfactory situation that F.P [Petrie] 1928:68) although basing himself entirely on the original Stoessiger report, could sumarise the Badarian skull material in terms which denied any serious Negro element." -------------------------------
And as Keita notes researchers on the ground manipulated data on "race" lines, excluding or recalssifying remains into some other category even though they were clearly 'negro' by their own standards. (S.O.Y Keita, "Studies of Ancient Crania From Northern Africa,): quote-
"Analyses of Egyptian crania are numerous. Vercoutter (1978) notes that ancient Egyptian crania have frequently all been "lumped (implicitly or explicitly) as Mediterranean, although Negroid remains are recorded in substantial numbers by many workers... The majority of the work describes a Negroid element, especially in the southern population and sometimes as predominating in the predynastic period (Falkenburger, 1947). Workers describing some tropical African morphological or morphometric affinities with southern predynastics and dynastics include Thompson and Randall-MacIver (1905), Thomson (19051, Giuffrida-Ruggeri (1915, 1916, Stoessiger (1927), Krogman (1937), Morant (1925,1935, 1937) (who described Upper and Lower Egyptian types without much emphasis on racial labeling), Nutter (19581, Strouhal (1968, 19711, and Angel (1972).
"Nutter (1958), using the Penrose statistic, demonstrated that Nagada I and Badari crania, both regarded as Negroid, were almost identical and that these were most similar to the Negroid Nubian series from Kerma studied by Collett (1933). [Collett, not accepting variability, excluded "clear negro" crania found in the Kerma series from her analysis, as did Morant (1925), implying that they were foreign.].." ---------------------------
So spare us the pious commentary on "concern" about "race." It wasn't blacks who began the obsession about Egyptian race as can be clearly seen.. But somehow those who profess to "regret disucssions of race" often seem to miss this point. "Race" has been there since the beginning of archealogy on the ancient Egytians, pious denials, and lofty rhetoric notwithstanding.
KING Member # 9422
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It always makes me laugh when we get the people who look down on race related threads and then belittle the people.
They seem to not understand that race has been a hot topic for sometime and was started by the eurocentrics.
Heres an idea, if a topic comes up that you don't like, then don't post in it.
Peace
Burzacott Member # 16965
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Thanks Djehuti.
I'm surprised at how quickly a simple offering formula question degenerates into a race debate!
Sonomod, why are you even in this forum if you're not into ancient Egypt? Bizarre. Enjoy your herb garden.
Jeff
Bro Dawud Member # 11484
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Did somebody say herb garden?
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
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Bro Dawud!! yamete Kudasi...As one of Nancy Reagan's kids we Just say No to Drugs...... ...herb gardens has got to be thyme or parsely,
cheekyboy Member # 16969
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Brada-Anansi, did you have 'Dictation' classes in your primary school?
I'm sure you didn't as your spellings are quite poor.
Brada-Anansi Member # 16371
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Cheeky...I am the first to admit it and my typing sucks even more..I have never worked in an office per-say..and for the longest I have done most of my business in Japanese..but still need a secetary..and folks to take care of paper work.. but I do know what a + or a- minus means on a balance sheet and can kick ass accordingly.
cheekyboy Member # 16969
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For christ's sake!!!
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by Burzacott: Thanks Djehuti.
I'm surprised at how quickly a simple offering formula question degenerates into a race debate!
Sonomod, why are you even in this forum if you're not into ancient Egypt? Bizarre. Enjoy your herb garden.
Jeff
Your welcome. Though I wish the specialists in hieroglyphs of this forum (Wally, Sabalour, etc.) would pitch in. And yes I don't know how 'race' was brought into this issue!
Zarahan, I don't know if you brought race up first or Sonomod, but as you can see this thread was about a simple line of translation.
alTakruri Member # 10195
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Guy broaches a thread asking a question about mdw ntr interpretation. Guy gets one reply related to his question, the thread's topic. The thread gets 14 posts of shitshat, and this supposedly is the "serious" Egyptology forum not Ancient Egypt the bullshitters forum.
Now could that be why we hear so little from the vets?
It's not the bona fide trolls who're littering. Each of you not contributing to the topic are trashing this forum.
Congratulations!
Clyde Winters Member # 10129
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Guy broaches a thread asking a question about mdw ntr interpretation. Guy gets one reply related to his question, the thread's topic. The thread gets 14 posts of shitshat, and this supposedly is the "serious" Egyptology forum not Ancient Egypt the bullshitters forum.
Now could that be why we hear so little from the vets?
It's not the bona fide trolls who're littering. Each of you not contributing to the topic are trashing this forum.
Congratulations!
Cheers.
Good point. At ancient Egypt speculation is accepted. I do believe that at this site there should be more responsible scholarship .
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Guy broaches a thread asking a question about mdw ntr interpretation. Guy gets one reply related to his question, the thread's topic. The thread gets 14 posts of shitshat, and this supposedly is the "serious" Egyptology forum not Ancient Egypt the bullshitters forum.
Now could that be why we hear so little from the vets?
It's not the bona fide trolls who're littering. Each of you not contributing to the topic are trashing this forum.
Congratulations!
Seriously, what good is creating the ghetto of Egyptsearch (Ancient Egypt section) for nonsense if folk keep bringing such nonsense here now?!
Mulan Member # 17033
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quote:Originally posted by Burzacott: Hi, I'm studying hieroglphs and I've got the part of the offering formula where it goes 'upon which a god lives', which is represented by 'ankh neter im'. I get the 'ankh' and 'neter' signs, but can you tell me what 'im' stands for in this context? I've looked it up and the online dictionaries say 'im' means 'there' or 'therein', so I don't see how it can form part of 'upon which a god lives'. My head hurts. Can you help? Cheers, Jeff
Dear Jeff, I am not a scientist - but I am very interested in Medu Netjer (I am sorry for mistakes, but English is not my mother language). And I am disappointed in the way of reaction of some people here after a simple question. Do they know something or not? I guess that knowing people would reply in another way. So I want to try to help for your question if I can . ...
Is it possible that you can show or send an image of this text or spell here the Gardiner sign numbers - if possible in a proper way of encoding like "S34 N35*Aa1 R8 M17[?] G17[?]" ...? is the "im" just G17 or is it M17+G17 or another sign or combination? You surely know it is always difficult or merely impossible to judge if there is only used the common "transcription" without clear identification to exclude variantions of same sounds. Not to forget all the determinatives. And also not the many possibilities of spelling which makes the script very flexible - and also difficult. ... and I found a very similar phrase: "ankhet netjer im" (anx&t nTr i m = S34&X1 R8 M17 G17) which is translated into German as "wovon ein Gott lebt", i.e. "what from a god lives" or "what on a god lives" or the like. I found it in the German translation of Marc Collier's 2How to read Egyptian Hieroglyphs" (§ 26; British Museum Press).
May be it is that what you are looking for? ...
Bye! Htp! Mulan
Wally Member # 2936
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ...the translation you just gave me, ankh neter im basically means something like 'god lives therein'.
...'god lives therein' is as good as it gets with what's been presented - you could also say 'god lives within'...obviously an incomplete sentence. This can 'poetically' be written as '(a) god lives upon' and expressed as 'upon which a god lives'...
sam p Member # 11774
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quote:
Not in a bad mood, but it ticks me off the only interest foreigners have in Egypt is a regime that is long dead and gone.
Then the obessession with race starts in and it gets really weird.
Its like telling a friend not to snort their first line of cocaine, but in this instance you Djehuti, are the dealer of samples.
I rarely post off topic but will simply say that I've been fascinated by modern day Egypt since long before I had any interest in the pyramids and "long dead regimes". I have no interest in race whatsoever. Men differ far more on individual characteristics than even on the largest of racial ones.
I was even keen on Egypt before the Aswan High Dam and have long followed current events and politics there.
Now days I do have an even greater interest in the ancients however. This is caused by wanting to know how the pyramids were built and I believe the subject of this thread actually relates to how they were built! The phrase "that upon which a God lives" appears in the Pyramid Texts and I believe the translation is wrong. If my literal interpretation of the text is correct a better translation would probably be "that which causes (or allows) that a God remain living".
Now that I've found it my ttention will be on this thread.
Thanks all.
Wally Member # 2936
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Why not submit the complete text in question; both the Mtau Ntr version and the English interpretation (correct or flawed)...
sam p Member # 11774
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quote:Originally posted by Wally: Why not submit the complete text in question; both the Mtau Ntr version and the English interpretation (correct or flawed)...
I hope you mean me.
I'm a little hesitant to go into this here but I guess I brought it up.
1511a. anointed with the best ointment, clothed in [purple], 1511b. living on figs, drinking wine. 1512 a. N. anoints himself with that with which you anoint yourselves; 1512b. N. clothes himself with that with which you clothe yourselves; 1512c. N. lives on that on which you live;
816b. who clothe themselves in purple (?), who live on figs, 816c. who drink wine, who anoint themselves with ḥȝt.t-oil,
1112a. Behold, he is come; behold, he is come; 1112b. behold, N. is come, for life and joy, 1112c. and he makes his repast on figs 1112d. and on wine which is in the divine vineyard.
I believe the Pyramid Texts were meant literally and this has been hidden to us because we are not familiar with any of the referents. It appears that the ancients believed that eating figs grown at Rosteau provided long life. This is not certain by any means but this seems to be a common theme for some time into the future as well. This interpretation is merely implied and nowhere is it stated positively unless there is a translation error in 1512c.
I'd be interested in your opinion in any case.
1216d. They give to N. the tree of life whereof they live, 1216e. that N. may, at the same time, live thereof.
Mulan Member # 17033
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Hi, but why there is still no word about the spelling in Hieroglyphs? I have asked for it in my last post. And @Wally is asking similar. ... If it is not possible to show the text in original signs then please try to describe the spelling in the way I asked for, like the citation in respect of Mark Collier's book "How to read Hieroglyphs": "ankhet netjer im" (anx&t nTr i m = S34 X1 R8 M17 G17). With the phrase "S34 X1 R8 M17 G17" you can spell it in Hieroglyphs online at http://hieroglyphs.net/0301/cgi/pager.pl?p=04 or at http://www.aegyptisch.de/glyphomat.pl
Bye! Mulan
Djehuti Member # 6698
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I agree with Wally. Perhaps the best way with translating these texts here is presenting the actual Mdu Neter inscription here first before making any attempts to translate it.
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