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Nubian aDNA: what the hell is stopping ES members from claiming CL Fox 1997?
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Firewall: [QB] Edited- [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Firewall: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Firewall: [qb] Modern sudan [/qb][/QUOTE]Huhmmmm, some Arabic tribes moved into Africa recently. Hence the o.p. posted Sample of Arab Nubians taken. You took out the Arab part, for some funny reason. [/qb][/QUOTE]I believe the sample was for the nubians of the nile valley that's why i took out the arab part,but you could be right and these could be the arab nubians,but one problem sudan does not have arab nubians in the census,only egypt has that. Sudan have arabized nubians but most are called arabs first like Gaalien etc...,but these would be called arabized nubians,but on the census they are just called arabs and not arab nubians. There are arabized hill nubians and darfur nubians but the only thing really arabized about them is that they speak arabic mostly first,but they still speak thier nubian language and thier culture still nubian. I do not why they called arabized because thier culture is still mostly nubian or nubian,and they see themselves has nubian and in the census still are nubians. So arabized could mean varied things it seems. The sample was for the nile valley modern nubians of sudan. The other interesting thing is that there are more nubians outside the nile valley in sudan then in the nile,like the darfur nubians and hill nubians. I should have posted them instead,but some nubians of the nile valley of sudan do look like white arabs or turks so i guess when they mean nubian these days it could be white or black,like hispanic,so i agree we have to be careful on who they are testing just like they do with late ancient egypt or modern egypt. Of course most nubians are still black but you do have some that do not look black in egypt and sudan and i was shocked when i first saw them on tv a few years ago calling themselves nubians,but they do not call themselves black i heard recently. So you do have nile nubians of egypt and sudan that are not really black,but nubians outside the nile in sudan,kenya,chad etc...are only black and i do not see any arab white looking types in those nubian groups. I GUESS they had enough of the few whites coming into the nile in nubia, like those arab invaders overtime and converted brainwashed black arabs so they went further south and south west over the years to better protect themselves and doing a good job at. Here are links with out the arab part below dealing with the nile valley. Check it out. The info inside just says nubian,not arab nubian. Brief review of recent mtDNA H info http://leherensuge.blogspot.com/2009/04/brief-review-of-recent-mtdna-h-info.html and sudaneseonline.com /sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn= http://www.sudaneseonline.com/cgi-bin/sdb/2bb.cgi?seq=msg&board=430&msg=1364754551&rn=88 [/qb][/QUOTE]Yeah, you're right that Nubian is just a cluster name. One should keep in mind that "Nubians", Southern Egyptians are endogamous people (who don't easily marry out) and always have been. [/qb][/QUOTE]Good point,but i read something about some nile nubians who did intermarried with arabs around the later middle ages starting in the northern lower nubian region and later a few intermarried in the later middle ages in upper nubia and right into modern period. Here some info about them and the arab nubians before in a book called nubian ethnographies. The info could be outdated to some extent however,but here is some of that info. quote- In the eleventh century,the rabi a an arabian tribe yemama who had first entered egypt in the ninth century,forcibly settled in the nubian region around aswan,and at this time the first general conversion of a part of the nubian population is likely to have occurred.The rabia brought thier religion and tribal political organization with them,but they adopted the language and presumably much of thier culture of the villagers as,over the years,they intermarried with the local population and came to be call the beni kanz,and later the kenuz,a name for this group of northern nubians survives to this day. quote- The coming of the kenuz,a people without historic ties to the other inhabitants,may have created the first sharp division at aswan,effectively blocking contacts between the older settlers,north and south.Agricultural resources were always very marginal along this stretch of river near the first cataracts and could support in the best of times only a relatively small population.Possibly,the dongolaw ancestors of the present kenuzi people,dependent primarily on trade rather than agriculture,had become numerically and linguistically predominant by the time the beni kanz came from the desert and overran the area in the eleventh century. This hypothesis is further strengthened by the somewhat parallel existence of another intrusive population farther south,the small enclave of the arabic-speaking "nubians" found between the kenuz and fediji,in the wadi el-arab region.Many of the men in this intermediate area were descended from members of the allaqat tribe,which originated in the nejd of northern arabia.These nubians still consider themselves allaqat and have occasional contacts with the tribe.Thier genealogies reveal marriages with both men,and,to a lesser extent,fediji,but the language has remained exclusively arabic for most of the men and women in the region.Until very recently these people did not call themselves nubians at all,and they are now so identified in political-territorial rather than an ethnic-linguistic sense. These arabs explain thier presence in nubia by recalling that they (too)were traders. ___________________________________________________________________________ I remember Djehuti and Ausar talking about the turk stuff before. Here is some of that info. Early modern and modern egyptian nubia Turks in fediji area of nubia - quote- The inhabitants of derr are supposed to be the descendants of a number of bosnian soldiers,established in nubia by the sultan selym;and still in a great measure preserve thier comparatively fair complexion and european features,though in many instances,it is clear,from thier physiognomy,they have intermarried with blacks.In the morning several decently dressed lads passed by our boat on thier way to school,with the wooden tablets,on which they are taught to write,in tier hands. quote- The areas around derr and around ibrim had prospered to soome degree despite,or perhaps in part because of,the foreign garrisons sent by the ottomans to egyptian nubia,the southernmost outpost of their empire.Not only kurds and hungarians,but also mercenary soldiers from many distant regions of the oriental and occidental turkish world,came to nubia,where they perished,departed,or intermarried with the local population and settled there.The mixed origins of these nubians' forebears are still reflected in such local family names as magari and kurdi.During this long and obscure period of foreign intrusions into the southern region of egyptian nubia,a succession of hereditary muslim overlords,entitled kashifs,became established.These men,absorbed into the nubian community,had brought with them the education and literacy of the wider islamic congregation.Under thier supervision,mosques and quranic schools were built,which served to indicate to the world at large that here indeed was a congregation of muslims. The kashifs of ottoman times were replaced by mohammed ali with his own administrative officers,also called kashifs.Their rule was often tyrannical. Through intermarriage,however,many fediji nubians trace descent from these men,as well as from ottoman kashifs,and it is still a source of some prestige. Even after the advent of british colonial administration,kashif descendants retained considerable local authority in some nubian communities. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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