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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Lioness, nothing you posted refutes what I or Tukuler said. We aren't saying that all ancient Levantine peoples were black only that there were black people that existed among them. The pictures of Asiatics or Levantines you posted are proof of this. In fact from what I've seen MOST of the Levantine depictions are of non-black people which also explains why anthropologists have noted a disconnect between Egyptians and Levantine people in skeletal affinities. You posted a picture of a light-skinned Shasu Bedouin along side the black one I posted (assuming that the paint was not faded) And again a scene of Tutankhamun receiving tribute from Retenu (Canaan) [IMG]http://www.biblepicturegallery.com/samples/pa/world/nations/rulers_e/Canaanite%20delegation%20presented%20to%20Tuthankhamun%20Pa.gif[/IMG] ^ There are fair-skinned Retenu alongside the black ones. Our point was simply there was indeed a black presence despite the chagrin of many including yourself. [QUOTE]Originally posted by matu: [qb] Thanks Djehuti. My observations: -These are great images. I've seen that Canaanite tile before -- among other artifacts clearly showing Black Canaanites. I still can't fathom why certain groups want to label the Canaanites or Amorites White.[/qb][/QUOTE]Again, this comes from the fact that many people in the Levant were not black and so there is some confusion as to the identity of Canaanites as an ethnic group to those who inhabit the land of Canaan in general let alone the whole Levant region. [QUOTE][qb]- I wish I could see the actual wall painting of that hieroglyph -- I've come to distrust renditions.[/qb][/QUOTE]Actually for the most part renditions tend to be accurate in regards to color at least for those murals where the coloring is well preserved. [QUOTE][qb]- And wasn't Queen Tiye Ethiopian (Nubian)?[/qb][/QUOTE]No. She and he family were ethnic Egyptians who come from the Akhmim area of Upper Egypt. The whole premise that she was Nubian is a false one obviously stemming from the very dark complexion of her bust yet such a complexion is not uncommon in Upper Egypt especially southern Upper Egypt. There is obviously racial bias as most folks have know of Nefertiti's bust but have never seen that of Tiye or even heard of her. FYI I believe the original paint of Nefertiti's skin tone for her bust is also faded (whether deliberate or not) since I've seen old photos and even some recent ones showing traces of darker paint. [QUOTE][qb]- Per the Bible and Josephus, the Hamathites (and Hittites) were a Canaanite tribe occupying Syria. I'm more of a student of the Bible than a scientist/historian, so I have no idea what those groups translate to in archeological terms. - "The children of Ham possessed the land of Syria and Amanus, and the mountains of Libanus; seizing upon all that was on its sea-coasts, and as far as the ocean, and keeping it as their own. Some indeed of its names are utterly vanished away; others of them being changed, and another sound given them, are hardly to be discovered; yet a few there are which have kept their denominations entire." ( Josephus' 1st century, Antiquities of the Jews, Book I, Chapter 6 ) [/qb][/QUOTE]The 'Hittites' of the Bible are NOT the same as the Hittites of Anatolia but rather Hethites or descendants of Heth who are a Canaanite group. The problem with the Bible is that while the Book of Nations may make ethnic distinctions and even relations between such ethnicities the relations are not always clear. For example Elam is included along with the children of Shem even though the vast majority of Shemites speak Semitic languages while the Elamites did not and in fact the Elamites were a black Asiatic people themselves. Tukuler and others have pointed out that the Shemites were originally an all black people along with the Hamites. And there are others who even go as far as to say the original Shemites and Japhethites were all black. What is clear is that blacks were present in Western Asia and not just Africa (which includes Egypt) I will say that if history using Biblical texts is your thing then this would be a good book: [IMG]http://press.princeton.edu/images/k7641.gif[/IMG] The above book is good but it's not excellent based on the fact that the author Goldenberg still falls into the trap of using debunked notions of "true negro" or "true black" and applying it to only Kushites but not the other 'brothers' of Ham namely Egyptians and Canaanites. Strangely he admits that Kushites lived on both sides of the Red Sea i.e. Sudan and modern Ethiopia as well as Arabia but then says Egyptians were not 'truly black' but merely darker than the Israelites even though the Hebrew text he uses clearly refutes his assertion. Interestingly and just as strange, in regards to the Canaanites, he does cite Hebrew passages showing that Cushim or blacks did exist in the southern Levant in the Negev desert and around areas of Judaea as well as Midian and Sinai. So why he denies the Egyptians as blacks is bizarre. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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