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Question on the Pirke de R. Eliezer
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by africurious: I too agree with tukuler that there is a deliberate attempt to change the meaning of shehor. Some scholars are say it can mean dark as in a white person with a tan, and that is just plain nonsense. If it's meant to denote dark then it's a very dark color as is shown by the dark things to which it's applied, ex: late evening (as you point out) and wine. I'd also point out that Goldenberg has it wrong with some of the early arabic quotes too. In a couple of the quotes where he shows the arabs to describe themselves as white and to glorify white complexion, they actually do no such thing. Scholars like to translate the arabic "bayad" as meaning white. However, as was pointed out in several esteemed arabic medieval sources, including the well-known classical arabic lexicon Lisan al-Arab, "bayad" as applied to complexion means black but connotes luminosity of complexion/clearness/purity (which is supposed to be a reflection of purity of character/morals/etc.). Whenever "bayad" is applied to whites, the word "humra" (literally "red") is always applied as a qualifier. This is not totally Goldenberg's fault as he takes the english quotes from other scholars like Bernard Lewis. And that's the issue--if there are highly respected scholars like Lewis incorrectly translating words then it's hard to buck that trend. These mistranslations are deliberate too. Many scholars cannot see how it could be that certain ancients are described as black or anything near it so they come up with various explanations to alter the meaning to reflect what they think is "right" (or they just say the person(s) described was a slave). [/QB][/QUOTE] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Tukuler: It's the only one I know of and seemingly written by Palestinians not Babylonians. The "black and beautiful" concept extends from the era of the Song of Songs which is Solomon's up until at least the late medieval times of Europe. The Mishnah clearly delimits colour ranges of Judaeans as midway between that of pale white Germans and dark black Sudanese where it details the laws of leprosy finally deciding all cases to be judged by the intermediate Israelite tone else all Germans be lepers and any Sudani with a light spot/blotch likewise be declared a leper. [/QUOTE]If I am understanding this correctly the word black is being used to describe Judaens who are a medium brown tone between the darkest and lightest ethnicities. That is strictly color. There are people in Africa, the Mid East, India, Turkey, Mexico etc etc. who all could fit that description. The common American definition of black however means someone of dark skin and specifically of of African descent. This is the standard categorization used on U.S census forms and many other documents, in media and by the average American. A Mexican or Indian person for instance might be darker than Obama but aren't called black generally in American society. Yet Barak is called black because of his additional other traits, his features and hair which people interpret as African (although he is only half African) africurious given this when you look at the quote: "Shem was especially blessed black and beautiful" Do you interpret that as meaning someone of medium brown or darker skin or someone of medium brown or skin of primarily African descent specifically? [/QB][/QUOTE]
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