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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by The Explorer: [qb] To the fuckhead above (swenet), who is apparently having difficulty understanding the intro post: There's a preliminary question awaiting an answer. Either [b]directly[/b] post a [b]relevant[/b] answer--with substantiation, or just muzzle your mouth and stay scarse--essentially as a tacit realization that you like to seize upon just about any random thing that pops in your airhead as a material for what amounts to a fairy story-telling. [/qb][/QUOTE]You have to be off your ever loving rockers. Only in Explorer coo coo world is it procedure to call someone's views into question, not only with a preposterously stupid question that's impossible to answer with the data at hand (i.e., what language prehistoric Siwans spoke prior to the emergence of Berber languages), but is such retarded pseudo-scientific questioning used in the stead of proactive refutations of the observations I posted. Indeed, only in Explorer coo coo world does it make sense to kick off debate with cornball interviews, instead of addressing the opponents' observations that are perceived to be emotionally offensive (yes, truth hurts). I'm not in explorer coo coo world; I'm in the real world, where you either debate pro-actively, and say what it is you have to say, or suck it easy. I dare you to refute anything I said here, that pertains to the language shift that would have taken place in Siwa: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: As far as I know Siwa was never connected to or populated by archaic, OK, MK and NK dynastic Egyptians, unlike some of the other oases that were integrated into the Egyptian economies by the Mentuhoteps in the Middle Kingdom. Siwans would very likely be considered Libyans by Egyptians, rather than one of their own, but, interestingly, their genome is more Egypto Nubian-like than Berber-like. They also have Chadic elements in their genome, which might have something to do with the Berber population they've inherited their language from. Using the data in the OP to inform us about views towards homosexuality in Ancient Egypt is tempting, but, like I said, the two populations were probably isolated from each other. It might also be the case that the archaeologically attested prehistoric populations in Siwa were a different population from the current inhabitants, but whatever the origin of the former, morphometrics suggest they were close to pre-dynastic Egyptians. [/qb][/QUOTE]wiki says " Although the oasis is known to have been settled since at least the 10th millennium BC, the earliest evidence of connection with ancient Egypt is the 26th Dynasty, when a necropolis was established" there is a big gap between 10 millenium and the 26th dynasty. Is there any evidence of a population living there bewteen these two dates? [/qb][/QUOTE]There are at least three substrata in Siwa Berbers. You have the NRY B group, along with specific mtDNA L0, L3 and L4 subclades, which would have been shared with Egypto-Nubians. You have the NRY R-V88 group and mtDNA L3e subclades which are shared with Chadic speakers. There is also the small pocket change of NRY E-M81 and mtDNA U6, H1, which is shared with Berbers. Siwa M1, but also Siwa E-V6 was possibly introduced by Egyptian speakers, whom I suspect can be tentatively identified with the earliest Naqada semi-nomands, for various reasons. [qb]When you put these genetic substrata in line with the 10th millenium bc date mentioned in the wiki article, only the first substratum I mentioned is old enough to comfortably date back to that period. I think its quite possible that this substratum is a relic of these prehistoric Siwans, especially if this prehistoric culture they're talking about shows continuation well after the 10th millenium bc, because that's when folks found themselves trapped in the oases and Nile Valley, and migration slowed down (due to aridification). Based on the fact that Siwa is the only remaining Northern African hotspot of R-v88, and due to the fact that the Chadic L3e subclades spread to the rest of Northern Africa during this period, I suspect that the Chadic genetic signature made its way in (into Siwa) right before aridification set in ~5.5kya, and the rest of this haplogroup made its way down to Cameroon. And then, after that, things would have stayed mostly the same, until much later, when the Berber elements entered the region, around the same time of late dynastic Egyptian contact with Siwa. Why? Because that's about how old the branch of Berber Siwa belongs to, is calculated to be. Like I said above, I believe this is also around the same time Berbers entered the el-Hayez oasis with their E-M81. [/qb][/QUOTE] [/QB][/QUOTE]
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