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Book: “Ancient Egypt in Africa”
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Firewall: [qb] I disagree. You have it right about north Africa but wrong about sudan and the horn. J1 found in Sudan are from those who have intermarried etc. with Arabs that came into Sudan in recent times. J1 is not found in ancient Sudan or the Nile valley in Sudan in ancient times so clearly it came in with Arabs in the middle ages. Don't go by the map for Sudan above. IT'S MISLEADING. That really green spot is heavily focus on one area in Sudan and that's the city of Khartoum, where some both black ARABS and some OTHER blacks in Sudan with some arab admixture and non blacks live in high numbers.[/qb][/QUOTE]Some of the lineages date to Medieval times while others do NOT. Keep in mind there are J1 lineages in Ethiopia that date back to the Neolithic long before an 'Arab' ethnicity let alone identity even existed. [QUOTE][qb]Let us keep in mind there are some Arabs in Sudan that are not black and there is large number of them like 4 to 5 million. There are few Beja and Nubians that are not black or do not look black and there are other non-blacks in sudan.[/qb][/QUOTE]There are Tuareg and Kabyle that don't look exactly black either yet carry ancient African ancestry. There are totally white Europeans who also carry African ancestry, so what's your point?? I’m not exactly saying that J1 is African however J1 has its highest frequency and diversity in Arabia especially south Arabia among black types. Mind you, the major Arab tribes that contributed geneflow to North Africa including the Sudan were the Banu Salaym and Banu Hilal of the Hejaz who in original descriptions weren’t exactly the fair-skinned northern look. Also, both Egypt and Sudan invited other more northerly tribes since then. [QUOTE][qb]Sudan (Khartoum) total J-M267 74.3% A lot of these types live in Khartoum where that green dot is really green at. As for the horn some it is earlier some of it is later but the subclades for the horn does not come from hot adapted types.[/qb][/QUOTE]And what evidence do you have that these subclades were introduced into the Horn from cold adapted types?? The only possible evidence of entry into the Horn by cold-adapted types comes from [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008634]SLC24A5 alleles[/URL] among some Ethiopians. Yet the presence of this allele in Ethiopia dates to at [i]least[/i] the Bronze Age, whereas the majority of J1 subclades date to the [i]Neolithic[/i] and again many South Arabians who possess those clades are not even light-skinned but much darker/blacker. [QUOTE][qb]AS for the origin for the subclades in the horn, The BELOW INFO will explain in more detail. I rather go by the info below then the map. What i said before and the info below says something different from your info.[/qb][/QUOTE]Let’s see. [QUOTE][i] Haplogroup J-P209 Distribution Haplogroup J-P209 is found in greatest concentration in Southwestern Arabian Peninsula. Outside of this region, haplogroup J-P209 has a presence in North Africa. It also has a moderate presence in Southern Europe (especially in central and southern Italy, Malta, Greece, and Albania), Central Asia, and South Asia, particularly in the form of its subclade J-M172. Haplogroup J-P209 is also found in north East Africa, particularly in the form of its J-M267 subclade. The J-M410 subclade is found mostly in Greece, Anatolia, and southern Italy. In Northern India, 28.7% of the Shia Muslim among whom are the Sayyid population, belong to haplogroup J2. Haplogroup J-M267[Phylogenetics 2] defined by the M267 SNP is in modern times most frequent in the Arabian Peninsula: Yemen (up to 76%),[Footnote 5] Saudi (up to 64%) (Alshamali 2009), Qatar (58%),[Footnote 6] and Dagestan (up to 56%).[Footnote 4] J-M267 is generally frequent among Arab Bedouins (62%),[Footnote 7] Ashkenazi Jews (20%) (Semino 2004), Algeria (up to 35%) (Semino 2004), Iraq (up to 33%) (Semino 2004), Tunisia (up to 31%),[Footnote 8] Syria (up to 30%), Egypt (up to 20%) (Luis 2004), and the Sinai Peninsula. To some extant, the frequency of Haplogroup J-M267 collapses at the borders of Arabic/Semitic speaking territories with mainly non-Arabic/Semitic speaking territories, such as Turkey (9%), Iran (5%) and Northern Indian Shia (11%) (Dienekes 2009 and Cinnioglu 2004). However, it should be noted that some figures above tend to be the larger ones obtained in some studies, while the smaller figures obtained in other studies are omitted. It is also highly frequent among Jews, especially the Kohanim line (46%) (Hammer 2009). ISOGG states that J-M267 originated in the Middle East. It is found in parts of the Near East, Anatolia and North Africa, with a much sparser distribution in the southern Mediterranean flank of Europe, and in Ethiopia. But not all studies agree on the point of origin. The Levant has been proposed but a 2010 study concluded that the haplogroup had a more northern origin, possibly Asia Minor. The origin of the J-P58 subclade is likely in the more northerly populations and then spreads southward into the Arabian Peninsula. The high Y-STR variance of J-P58 in ethnic groups in Turkey, as well as northern regions in Syria and Iraq, supports the inference of an origin of J-P58 in nearby eastern Anatolia. Moreover, the network analysis of J-P58 haplotypes shows that some of the populations with low diversity, such as Bedouins from Israel, Qatar, Sudan and UAE, are tightly clustered near high-frequency haplotypes suggesting founder effects with star burst expansion into the Arabian Desert (Chiaroni 2010). Haplogroup J-M267 Men from this lineage share a common paternal ancestor, which is demonstrated and defined by the presence of the SNP mutation referred to as M267, which was announced in (Cinnioğlu 2004). This haplogroup is found today in significant frequencies in many areas in order near the Middle East, and parts of the Caucasus, Sudan and the Horn of Africa. It is also found in high frequencies in parts of North Africa and amongst Jewish groups, especially those with Cohen surnames. It can also be found much less commonly, but still occasionally in significant amounts, in Europe and as far east as Central Asia. Arabian peninsula J-P58 is the most common Y-Chromosome haplogroup among men from all of this region. Subclade Distribution Chiaroni 2009 proposed that J-P58 (that they refer to as J1e) might have first dispersed during the Pre-Pottery Neolithic B period, "from a geographical zone, including northeast Syria, northern Iraq and eastern Turkey toward Mediterranean Anatolia, Ismaili from southern Syria, Jordan, Palestine and northern Egypt." They further propose that the Zarzian material culture may be ancestral. They also propose that this movement of people may also be linked to the dispersal of Semitic languages by hunter-herders, who moved into arid areas during periods known to have had low rainfall. Thus, while other haplogroups including J-M172 moved out of the area with agriculturalists who followed the rainfall, populations carrying J-M267 remained with their flocks (King 2002 and Chiaroni 2008). According to this scenario, after the initial neolithic expansion involving Semitic languages, which possibly reached as far as Yemen, a more recent dispersal occurred during the Chalcolithic or Early Bronze Age (approximately 3000–5000 BCE), and this involved the branch of Semitic which leads to the Arabic language. The authors propose that this involved a spread of some J-P58 from the direction of Syria towards Arab populations of the Arabian Peninsula and Negev. The "YCAII=22-22 and DYS388≥15" cluster Not only is the J-P58 group itself very dominant in many areas where J-M267 is common, but J-P58 in turn contains a large cluster which had been recognized before the discovery of P58, and is still a subject of research. This relatively young cluster, compared to J-M267 overall, was identified by STR markers haplotypes - specifically YCAII as 22-22, and DYS388 having unusual repeat values of 15 or higher, instead of more typical 13 (Chiaroni 2011) This cluster was found to be relevant in some well-publicized studies of Jewish and Palestinian populations (Nebel 2000 and Hammer 2009). More generally, since then this cluster has been found to be frequent among men in the Middle East and North Africa, but less frequent in areas of Ethiopia and Europe where J-M267 is nevertheless common. The pattern is therefore similar to the pattern of J-P58 generally, described above, and may be caused by the same movements of people (Chiaroni 2009).[/i] [/QUOTE]Okay. I just read everything and I fail to see how any of what you cited contrasts with what I’ve said. Again J1 and all of its subclades have their highest frequency and diversity both in Arabia particularly in the southern i.e. [i]tropical[/i] region among tropically adapted folk. J2 and its subclades have their highest frequency in the northern areas of Anatolia and the Caucasus among temperate and cooler adapted folk but original J* also has its frequency in the south as well like in Soqotra. J’s sibling hg I is also found in Africa particularly southern Egypt and Sudan even though it also has an origin in Southwest Asia, then there is hg K and hg T both found in tropical adapted peoples of both Africa [i]and[/i] Asia. So really I don’t know why you are so keen to associate hg J or any Southwest Asian derived clades with supposedly populations that are not tropically adapted. Many scholars associated haplogroup J with early Semitic speakers but remember that Semitic was a branch of Afrisian which originates in Africa and that the introduction of proto-Semitic or perhaps a pre-proto-Semitic into the Levant was done so by E1b1b carriers. Note also that there are traces in Arabia of even older E2 and E1 carriers as well. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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