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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: [QUOTE]Originally posted by the lioness,: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote: [QUOTE] The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone. [/QUOTE]Clyde you say "Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East" but the quote here doesn't even mention Africa [QUOTE]Originally posted by Clyde Winters: But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. [/QUOTE]There would there be less carriers in Egypt because the migration is of Iberians to Africa across Gibralter [QUOTE]Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor [IMG]http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2014/01/06/article-2534730-1A746AE300000578-598_634x432.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE][/qb][/QUOTE]A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia. [IMG]http://olmec98.net/BadramtDNA.png[/IMG] . It is more likely that given the locations of hg H in Africa, it probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe hg H entered Iberia during the African Moorist invasion of Spain and spread across Europe into the Middle East. [/QUOTE]^Clyde you have a chart here with the pie diagrams. I don't see that chart in the Pierron article It shows in red color Malians having 50% mtDNA haplogroup H This leads one to believe that that chart is taken out of context to put it mildly Similalry there is nothing showing for Spain where there are high frequencies of H So what is the source of this chart? You argue that Levantine Haplogroups would likely back Migrate into Africa> "Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia." However researchers believe it originated in Anatolia where it has high diversity not the Levant From this points is spreads into Europe and then North Africa and reaches some very high frequency in certain isolated Tunisian berber populaltions [QUOTE] [b]Origin and Expansion of Haplogroup H, the Dominant Human Mitochondrial DNA Lineage in West Eurasia: The Near Eastern and Caucasian Perspective[/b] U Roostalu1,*, I Kutuev*†, E-L Loogväli*, E Metspalu*, K Tambets*, M Reidla*, EK Khusnutdinova†, E Usanga‡, T Kivisild* and R Villems* + Author Affiliations The peopling of Europe by AMH probably started more than 40,000 YBP (Mellars 2006), with the first evidence in the Lower Danube Basin (Churchill and Smith 2000; Conard and Bolus 2003), suggesting the Near East–Anatolia as a likely route for these pioneer hunter–gatherers to Europe. It has a coalescence age of about 31,000 YBP according to HVS-1 (table 1) and about 25,000 or 19,000 YBP when calculated using coding region mutations. The reason for this could lie in its area of spread, centered in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East (fig. 3), having presumably milder and less arid climate during the LGM, favorable for human occupation (Adams and Faure 1997; Ramrath et al. 1999; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000; Aksu et al. 2002). These estimates overlap with the coalescence dates calculated here for the oldest subclades of hg H. We assume, therefore, that the first expansion wave of hg H may have taken place during this favorable time frame, probably in the northern part of the Near East and the southern Caucasus, where the oldest clades of hg H appear to be more diverse until now. It has been shown that the Upper Paleolithic archaeological culture was present in the South Caucasus more than 30,000 YBP, well before the LGM (Adler et al. 2006), giving support for our estimates of past population expansions in this region. How far the pre-LGM expansion of hg H from the Near East may have reached before the onset of the LGM is indicated by the distributions of some hg H subclades (H1, H3) (Achilli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), as well as its sister clade hg V (Torroni et al. 1998, 2001). In Europe, these clades display frequency clines radiating from the Iberian Peninsula. This pattern has been associated with the spread of the carriers of the Magdalenian culture after the LGM, suggesting that hg H had reached Europe (Pereira et al. 2005) and, perhaps, western Siberia/Inner Asia (Loogväli et al. 2004), before the LGM. It is most likely that the initial population expansion in the southern Caucasus and the Near East involved other maternal lineages besides hg H as well. In this context, it is worth pointing out that hg U3 has been shown to be most divergent in this region, having begun to expand about 30,000 YBP (Metspalu et al. 1999). Similarly, hg HV1, with an analogous coalescence estimate, is most common and diverse in the southern Caucasus, present in the eastern Mediterranean. On the other hand, neither of the 2 became ever as frequent in Europe as hg H did (Tambets et al. 2000), suggesting that profoundly different later migration scenarios apply to them. It should be stressed that for the majority of hg H subclades, the signal of expansion in the Near East and the Caucasus lies in a time frame between 18,000 and 10,000 YBP (table 1). It may suggest that such subclades not only expanded but also in fact arose much later than the earliest limbs of hg H. The European hg H gene pool differs significantly from that in the southern Caucasus and the Near East (fig. 4A) because different sub-hgs have expanded after the LGM in different large subcontinental areas. Most importantly, it appears that after the initial migration of the carriers of hg H into Europe, presumably already before or during the Gravettian period, there was little subsequent admixture of the West Asian and European hg H lineages. As for Europe, a number of frequency/diversity clines in the Near East and the Caucasus could be associated with the postglacial population expansion phase. This can be partially ascribed, as in Europe, to the (re)colonization of areas that were unsuitable for human occupation during the LGM due to aridity and lower temperatures. Sub-hgs H5*, H20, and H21 are the most frequent and diverse in the western Caucasus hg H gene pool. The region, stretching over the southeastern coast of the Black Sea, was a refugium area for forest (Adams and Faure 1997; Tarasov et al. 1999, 2000) and could have thus provided better conditions for fauna, as well as perhaps for human beings during the LGM. The phylogeography of H20 and H21 appears to be strictly limited within the immediate neighboring populations, suggesting their autochthonous origin in the Caucasus, whereas H5* has also been found throughout western Eurasia, albeit at a lower frequency (Loogväli et al. 2004). The expansion of humans to the Arabian Peninsula likely took place later, due to persisting aridity, which is still characteristic of the region today. As a consequence, the overall genetic diversity of hg H lineages in this region is very low (fig. 1), and the corresponding frequency pattern of hg H subclades differs from that observed elsewhere in the Near East (fig. 3). Furthermore, our analysis provides evidence for possible back migration to the Caucasus and the Near East from the European populations. This possibility, as far as the Near East is concerned, has been discussed in some details by Richards et al. (2000), where a need for rigorous comparative phylogeographic lineage analysis (founder analysis) has been stressed. Complete mtDNA sequence based phylogeographic analysis—an approach that became available only recently—offers a new and more powerful means for such analysis (Torroni et al. 2006). Our results show that hg H-related gene flow from the East European Plain to the Caucasus populations is particularly evident in the mtDNA pool of the Turkic-speaking Karatchaians–Balkarians, where typically European sub-hgs of hg H, such as H1a, H1b, and H3, are present at a high frequency (figs. 1 and 2 and Supplementary Material online). This apparent overlap may have ancient roots, such as shared ancestry of Karatchaians–Balkarians and northern Ponto-Caspian nomadic people. Taken together with recent series of predominantly “eurocentric” high-resolution phylogeographic analysis of hg H (Achilli et al. 2004; Loogväli et al. 2004; Pereira et al. 2005), presented here data suggest that hg H had already expanded before the LGM, with its oldest lineages being frequent in the southern Caucasus and the northern part of the Near East. A new phase of expansion followed the climate amelioration after the LGM. Later on, there appears to be only limited mtDNA flow from the Near East/the southern Caucasus toward Europe, as far as the dominant maternal lineage cluster—hg H—is concerned. As a result, different frequency spectra of hg H subclades characterize an otherwise largely joint Near Eastern heritage of maternal lineages for both West Asia and Europe. Previous Section Next Section [/QUOTE][/qb][/QUOTE]Your reaction is rejection...like the simple mind you are. In other posts you've claimed it was a genetic drift from Europe. :D However, you still have some explaining to do. http://www.cell.com/cms/attachment/1077329/7908829/mmc2.xls http://www.nature.com/jhg/journal/v56/n9/extref/jhg201171x2.xls http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1182259/table/TB1/ [QUOTE] Haplogroup L1b roots deeply in the human mtDNA phylogeny and has the characteristic motif [b]16126, 16187, 16189, 16223, [/b]16264, 16270, 116278, [b]16311. [/b] [...] The dates for subhaplogroups H1 and H3 (13,000 and 10,000 years, respectively) in Iberian and North African populations allow for this possibility. Kefi et al.’s (2005) data on ancient DNA could be viewed as being in agreement with such a presence in North Africa in ancient times (about 15,000–6,000 years ago) and with the fact that the North African populations are considered by most scholars as having their closest relations with European and Asian populations (Cherni et al. 2008; Ennafaa et al. 2009; Kefi et al. 2005; Rando et al. 1998). How- ever, considering the general understanding nowadays that human settlement of the rest of the world emerged from eastern northern Africa less than 50,000 years ago, a better explanation of these haplogroups might be that their frequencies re- flect the original modern human population of these parts of Africa as much as or more than intrusions from outside the continent. The ways that gene frequencies may increase or decrease based on adaptive selection, gene flow, and/or social processes is under study and would benefit from the results of studies on autosomal and Y-chromosome markers. [/QUOTE]--Frigi et al. Ancient Local Evolution of African mtDNA Haplogroups in Tunisian Berber Populations [/QB][/QUOTE]
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