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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: [qb] Lmao except maybe egyptians and sudanese, north africans are as light if not lighter than most middle eastern "arabs"...that's just a made up claim from you...[/qb][/QUOTE]Nope. The only one making claims up is YOU. This is the general stereotype that Middle Eastern Arabs have about North Africans. Note this is a stereotype so there are of course exceptions but they know what the original North Africans look like. [QUOTE][qb]There is no evidence "baladi" are more indigenous than their muslim fellow countrymen, I actually know some of them on twitter and they keep attacking afrocentrists on a daily basis and aren't black looking...[/qb][/QUOTE]Baladi is the Coptic word for 'indigenous' or 'native' as opposed to Khawaga which means 'foreign'. Baladi is an ethnic appellation regardless of religion in contrast to other Egyptians who are of foreign ancestry whether it be Arab, Greek, Circassian, etc. Even some Baladi are mixed but those in the rural communities are more pristine. You say you know "some of them on twitter", but are they actually Baladi or simply Arab or some other type of Egyptian. Come on, be honest for once in your life. As far as not "black looking" well that depends on what you mean by "black". Many North Africans equate "black" with stereotypical Sub-Saharan looking of course here in the West and even in Europe "black" encompasses a lot more than West African/Bantu looking. [QUOTE][qb]You simply constantly cherrypick the most negroid looking ones living at the border of Nubia meanwhile your regular baladi look like this: [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/YzpgbsX.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/pDvkid4.jpg?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/Am9IyRg.jpg?1[/IMG][/qb][/QUOTE]Moron! Most of the photos in my Baladi thread are from Luxor, Sohag, and Gurna Upper Egypt well away from the Sudanese border and I even included photos of Baladi from northern region of Giza who act as local tour guides for the pyramids!! So you assumed they were all Nubians from near the southern border because of their "negroid" appearance?!! Shows how ignorant you are!! [b]ROTFLOL[/b] [IMG]https://www.cointalk.com/attachments/roflmao-1emoji-gif.1228820/[/IMG] There's no need for me to "cherrypick" anything. Again I'm not playing 'picture spam wars' with you. There are countless picture threads in this forum showing you Baladi from their own communities. Go take a look yourself, and by the way your own photos prove my point. [QUOTE][qb]And stop with your "muh arab" as if a few thousand soldiers would have been able to replace or deeply impact the most densely populated area of the ancient world even worse with your logic we should accept the fact arabs replaced or deeply impacted the whole middle east + all north africa...sure. Some egyptians might have a bit of recent arab ancestry but that's it.[/qb][/QUOTE]You idiot, it was far more than a few thousand if you count the different Caliphates in history that brought in waves of Arab tribes to help establish their authority. Even the Ottoman Turkish Caliphate not only imported Arab tribes but also fellow Turks as well as Circassians from the Caucasus and even Europeans from the Balkans. It is pretty much a historical fact that througout the Dynastic Period and into the Roman period, the vast majority of the Egyptian populace resided in Upper Egypt yet by the beginning of the Modern Era the majority of the populace resides in the Delta as they do today. You don't think a demographic change occurred? I suggest you educate yourself: [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=002261]Arab migration into Egypt and Sudan during the Medieval period[/URL] [QUOTE][qb]hahaha sure a filipino spending years here obsessing over egyptians and their blackness ...makes sense.[/qb][/QUOTE]Actually, I joined this forum years ago to discuss cultural features of ancient Egyptian civilization which I happened to notice strongly coincide with those of Sub-Saharans. I pretty much got dragged into the whole 'race' argument but the evidence is overwhelming in support of their black identity. One does not have to be black to accept it. Again Paul Kekai Manansal did his research and compiled all the evidence. He even started a web group called 'Ta Seti'. Brandon is another poster on here and he is white!! There are many others. It's not about Afrocentric but about the TRUTH. Egypt is in Africa and its peoples are African including 'black' skin! [QUOTE][qb]Who said they were enslaved? Reread what I posted. What does "arab" even mean here ...Baladi speak arabic like any other egyptian and no they weren't a miniscule minority we're talking about millions of slaves being imported in North africa which had back then low population (compared to our current era) of a few millions (if not a few thousands for libya). Compared to all the ancient samples we have, egyptians have extra west african ancestry which could have only been brought by the slave trade (similar pattern is seen among their haplogroups). [/qb][/QUOTE]Baladi speak Arabic because they were Arabized like many people under Islamic rule. I forgot which Caliphate, but Egyptians were even threatened with fines and even death if the natives didn't learn Arabic. [URL=https://journals.openedition.org/ema/1920]The Transition from Coptic to Arabic[/URL]: [i] After the Arab conquest of Egypt, Coptic continued to be used by the Christian population and remained the sole language of the Church for at least three centuries. During the first century of Arab rule, it seems as if the use of Arabic was mainly limited to the immigrants, and the internal affaire of the military ruling elite. [b]It was only with the large-scale immigration of Arabs, the defeat of Coptic peasant résistance to the new rulers and the repressive taxation of the Copts with the subsequent conversion oflarge parts of the population to Islam in the later eighth and in the ninth century, that Arabic became the main spoken language.[/b] By the early ninth century, the use of Arabic among Christians had become widespread but was still regarded as contrary to their fidelity to the Christian heritage 4. But during the tenth and eleventh centuries, this changed rapidly. Within a few generations Coptic died out as a spoken language, and by the end of the twelfth century, Arabic had become the main written languageof the Church. As is evident from the linguistic works of the great Coptic scholars of the thirteenth century, Copticwas already a classical language known only by those who studied it from preserved texts[/i] Also, while millions of Sub-Saharans were imported into Egypt, the vast majority of them were then exported to the east in other parts of the Arab world especially Baghdad. This makes sense because the Baladi who themselves were in serfdom were already in a state of servitude to the Arab and other Afrangi elites who ruled over them so mass slave labor from eslwhere was not needed. Those Sub-Saharans who stayed in Egypt served in the Afrangi elite's households and in many ways had better lives than the Baladi who scraped and labored the fields. There were very few if any instances of Baladi intermarrying with these Sub-Saharan slaves. Also, the birthrate of the Sub-Saharans was extremely low. Not only were the males castrated and unable to sire offspring but it is recorded that the females had fertility issues. So no the Sub-Saharan admixture among modern Egyptians cannot be explained by "slave" admixture, ignoramus! [QUOTE][qb]I was talking about their ancestry not "biometric" datas and since when are dental traits representative of all the other traits?...[/qb][/QUOTE]If you paid attention to what was said in the Irish thread [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010466]here[/URL] or at least educate yourself about dental discrete data [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010059]here[/URL], you would realize that non-metric dental traits like [i]all[/i] non-metric traits correlate to actual population genetics! This is unlike metric data which is more specious and not directly tied to genetics. [QUOTE][qb]Most North Africans cluster with west eurasians physically certainly not as "intermediate":...[/qb][/QUOTE]That depends on which specific factor or trait you are referring to. In other ways, they cluster with Sub-Saharans as is the case with skeletal limb proportions: [i]The nature of the body plan was also investigated by comparing the intermembral, brachial, and crural indices for these samples with values obtained from the literature. [b]No significant differences were found in either index through time for either sex. The raw values in Table 6 suggest that Egyptians had the “super-Negroid” body plan described by Robins (1983)[/b]. The values for the brachial and crural indices show that [b]the distal segments of each limb are longer relative to the proximal segments than in many “African” populations[/b] (data from Aiello and Dean, 1990). This pattern is supported by Figure 7 a plot of population mean femoral and tibial lengths; (data from Ruff, 1994), which indicates that [b]the Egyptians generally have tropical body plans[/b]. Of the Egyptian samples, only the Badarian and Early Dynastic period populations have shorter tibiae than predicted from femoral length. Despite these differences, [b]all samples lie relatively clustered together as compared to the other populations[/b].[/i] - Sonia Zakrzewski (2003) [IMG]http://geocities.ws/nilevalleypeoples/trinkhauslimbproportion.jpg[/IMG] [QUOTE] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/s06TK3y.png?1[/IMG][/QUOTE]What study is that MMD chart from? From the French captions that I'm able to make out it seems to be based on craniometric data. Funny how in that chart Nilotes are also distant from Sub-Saharans and cluster as close to Indians as Nubians do and all cluster closer to Ancient Egyptians and Maghrebis. But again, metrical data is not reliable for assessing genetic relation as well as nonmetric data and the chart you present proves my point. Unless you want to say Nilotes like southern Sudanese aren't black either. [b]LOL[/b] [QUOTE] [i] [b]The anthropological position of Algerians vis-à-vis other populations of the Mediterranean Basin, also analyzed by the method of the general distance of Hiernaux, showed that there are affinities between them and certain populations of the Mediterranean West such as the Corsicans, the Sardinians, the Spaniards, the Italians of the south. On the other hand, the coefficients of distance appeared particularly high between the Algerians and the Italians of the Center, as well as the Yugoslavs and the sedentary populations of the Near East like the Jordanians, the Lebanese and the Syrians.[/b] In these populations, the Armenoid type, which is very different from the Mediterranean type, is indeed widely represented, whereas it is not very widespread in Algeria. There is therefore no reason to be surprised by these divergences. On the other hand, the distance between certain Bedouins of the Near East where the Mediterranean type predominates, and the Algerians, appeared much less marked. The origin of the affinities between the Algerians and the populations of the Western Mediterranean cannot be explained on the sole basis of current biological data, but must be sought in the anthropological past of the Algerian population as well as in the historical and archaeological data at our disposal. The latter, for their part, seem to demonstrate the existence of cultural currents from the protohistoric period and perhaps even going back to an earlier period, between the Maghreb and the countries of the [/i] https://journals.openedition.org/encyclopedieberbere/2897#tocto2n15 [/QUOTE]First off, the population history of the Maghreb is different from that of Egypt. Algerians are not Egyptians. Even the craniometric MMD chart you posted shows that. This shows that North Africans are not homogeneous anymore than Sub-Saharans are. Second, yes the Maghreb recieved admixture from Sothwest Europe but the converse is also true with Southwest Europeans recieving African admixture from the Maghreb. So what's your point? [QUOTE][qb]Showing some dental affinities with SSAs doesn't mean much since we already know north africans have ssa ancestry.[/qb][/QUOTE]Incorrect. Again Irish shows that North Africans differ from Sub-Saharans dentally especially metrically. If Egyptians were SSA mixed then metrically they would be intermediate with SSAs and Eurasians yet metrically they cluster immediately with Eurasians. Non-metrically they are intermediate due to the Sub-Saharan traits but are not grouped with the Sub-Saharans. [IMG]https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Joel_Irish/publication/232621785/figure/fig1/AS:585643059077120@1516639594249/Multidimensional-scaling-of-MMD-values-between-29-African-samples-based-on-the-dental.png[/IMG] What's interesting is that NONE of the samples Irish used are modern but ALL ancient samples from dynastic and predynastic times. This seemingly contradicts the Abusir Mummy study [i]unless[/i] one takes into account that the mummies come from a late period and/or what Beyoku pointed [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010487]here[/URL] that there are African substructures that are not yet differentiated from 'Eurasian' the same way ANA was. [QUOTE][qb]Funny how you try to question everything eurasian and make it "african"...I really wonder how all these populations became white with caucasoid features. And again stop obsessing over ANA while such ancestry was already found in low proportion among Iberomaurusians let alone people like Natufians. Having some ANA won't make them "african" or "black".[/qb][/QUOTE]Actually I only question something being "Eurasian" when it is found in Africa. You see, Euronuts like yourself have been trying to white-wash Africa for well over a century. Not just Egyptians, but Nubians and even Ethiopians, Somalis, Tutsis, Fulani, etc. any Africans who supposedly look "caucasoid". You see, one reason why Asians like myself and Manansala are on to your b.s. is because Asians have also been victims of this white-wash. Just look at the old literature of Southeast Asians and Polynesians once classed as "Mediteranean Cacasoid" due to certain features as well. As far as why many North Africans in the coastal areas including Egyptians look white today is because due to foreign admixture of course. Of course rural Berbers and Baladi Egyptians are different. [QUOTE][qb]So now even EEF are black ? Hahahahaha are you aware that modern sardinians are basically EEF do they look "african" to you ? Are you aware that modern arabs carry 60-70% of natufian ancestry do they look black to you ? Again stop embarassing yourself with such claims, it's pretty evident all these populations were physically very different from modern sub-saharan africans.[/qb][/QUOTE]I didn't say EEF itself was necessarily "black" only that it has an African component to it. And yes I know about modern Arabs carrying Natufian ancestry. Are you aware that the Natufians carried not only paternal E1b1b but also maternal L2b and Benin HBS sickle cell? Are you aware historically [i]some[/i] modern Arabs in the rural Hejaz and especially in Yemen today were/are considered black?? Are you also aware that [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009866]one-third of Europeans have African ancestry[/URL]? Does that make them black? Of course not. Having a particular ancestry doesn't mean they will have a certain phenotype or look. [QUOTE][qb]You're forgetting the timeframe here, when we talk about back migrants we're not talking about the first OOA migrants who just arrived in the middle east obviously. Upper Paleolithic europeans despite having dark skinned clearly had nothing to do with "africans" ,looked very different and plot far from them and yet Iberomaurusians were very similar to them physically...let alone the later neolithic capsians who were proto-mediterraneans and very similar physically to people like kabyles.[/qb][/QUOTE]Do you realize that even old racist scholars like Carleton Coon described so-called 'Proto-Mediterraneans' as distinct from Upper Paleolithic Europeans and as originating in Africa OR Southwest Asia and was said to have "negroid tendencies"?? He and other scholars also included North Sudanese and Horn Africans like Ethiopians and Somalis as part of this 'race continuum'. So if you want to include all these people as whate cacasoids then so be it. [QUOTE][qb]At this point it is just dishonesty, such back migrations and ancestry are definitely distinct and eurasian in essence unable to face such reality you tries to make it "african" as "part of the diversity of Africa" lmao...you're desesperate at this point.[/qb][/QUOTE]You're right about one thing. It is dishonesty from YOU, as well as ignorance. I just described all the African genetic traits associated with the Neolithic forebears including skeletal traits of skull and face that tie them to Africa. Africa is the source of humanity so unsurprisingly it has the highest genetic diversity of any continent. That you want live in fantasy land of white Egypt and white Neolithic folks who have nothing to do with Africa is your problem of delusion not mine. [QUOTE][qb]Which greek word exactly was used to describe her? "black" for greeks could have mean anything from tanned to proper black skin. [/qb][/QUOTE][b]LMAO[/b] :D Sorry but Greeks aren't dumb enough to conflate 'black' with 'tanned'!! The Greek word for black is melano (melanchro for very black) while the word for tanned or 'bronze' color is [i]skouraino[/i]. Not to mention the passage compared Didyme's complexion to [b]coal[/b]! Seriously, Neandernut your delusions are too much! [/QB][/QUOTE]
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