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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Antalas: [qb] I'm myself north african and I've never heard about such stereotype. That kind of stereotype would maybe work for egyptians and sudanese but certainly not NW africans.[/qb][/QUOTE]This is something I've heard personally from Arabs particularly from Asia. They said this about North Africans in general and made no distinction of Maghrebi or Masri. [QUOTE][qb]Many modern north africans consider themselves "arabs" because they're part of an arab tribe. Does that mean they are saudis living in North Africa ? Does that mean they are closer genetically to saudis than their berber or egyptian neighbours ? Of course not. We have enough of egyptian genetic results whether muslim or coptic and there isn't much difference between them but yet it seems you always avoid these results and prefer to rely on dubious biometric studies with limited set of samples...I wonder why.[/qb][/QUOTE]I never said there was much difference between Muslims and Copts. Again, poor reading comprehension skills on your part. What I said is that there [i]is[/i] a difference between Egyptians who identify ethnically as 'Arabs' vs. those who do not and call themselves 'Baladi'. The latter are only Arabized in language but have more so have preserved the indigenous culture. Even the surnames of many Baladi families are not Arabic but Coptic. Ethnologists have also noted differences in physical appearance and customs as well with many Baladi suffer racial discrimination from the lighter skinned Arabs. [QUOTE][qb]And I was honest (I can even give you his twitter account), they absolutely don't look black but look exactly like how egyptians used to depict themselves.[/qb][/QUOTE]I just showed you many ancient portraits including those from the Old Kingdom who blatantly look black. But apparently 'black' is in the eye of the beholder. There are Africans like North Sudanese and Somalis who say they don't look 'black' either so what do I care for some fair-skinned person from Egypt has to say? [QUOTE][qb]I've seen plenty of pictures from these people and they didn't look as black as the people you showed me that's why I'm seriously questioning your reliability.[/qb][/QUOTE]Again back to my previous point about what one thinks 'black' person to look like if by a straight up West or Central African Bantu. [QUOTE][qb]These are your assumptions based on historical events but do you have any genetic evidence of such changes? Or numbers of arabs,turks,circassians who settled and mixed with the local population?[/qb][/QUOTE]We have the accounts from all the Caliphates including the Ottomans who kept records of the people they imported in and what numbers. I even posted a link showing that in dynastic times the majority of Egyptians lived in the Valley as opposed to Modern times with the majority living in the Delta. You must be nutty to suggest no demographic changes occurred. [QUOTE][qb]It reminds me of these eurocentrists who assumed we were "mutts" because we absorbed too many black slaves and arabs...then the guanche paper came out and despite the lack of studies on our region, north african remains kept being found among south european remains and here again they clustered with us so don't assume military conquest equals replacement or changes.[/qb][/QUOTE]Again, most black slaves were NOT absorbed meaning that the admixture predated the Trans-Saharan slave trade. Also, Guanches were indeed white in appearance but they are not the only [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=008901;p=1]Canary Islanders[/URL]. What about the others?: [i]Pope Eugene IV [b]Against the Enslaving of Black Natives from the Canary Islands[/b] January 13, [b]1435[/b][/i] http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Eugene04/eugene04sicut.htm [i]Some six decades before Columbus set out for the new world, [b]Pope Eugene IV condemned the enslavement of black natives from the Canary Islands[/b]. This 1435 papal command demanded the European slave-masters to release them within 15 days or face the weight of excommunication from the Church. [/i] http://fatherjoe.wordpress.com/instructions/other/catholicism-the-black-experience/ [b]1402[/b] [i][b]Juan de Bethencourt became the first European to settle in the Canary Islands and made slaves of several natives heralding the beginning of the black slave trade.[/b] At this time slavery had been practically eliminated in Europe, thanks to the influence of the Church. The Holy Roman Church later would not only condone and support slavery even of those baptized into the Roman Catholic Church but also would hold their own slaves. Europe, led by Spain, would begin over four centuries of slave trading that included some twenty million Africans alone, of which half died in transit. Jewish children deported from Portugal during the Inquisition settle Sao Tome e Principe, two islands 320 kilometers west of Gabon. It then became a transit point for the slave trade. Pope John Paul II (1978 - ) in 1992 deplored the Roman Catholic Church's condoning of that sad offense to human dignity.[/i] [IMG]https://c8.alamy.com/comp/P9HA5B/cutthroat-man-and-woman-from-bioko-island-fernando-po-people-of-the-extinct-guanche-people-from-drawings-by-captain-filmore-handcoloured-steel-engraving-by-lizars-after-an-illustration-by-charles-hamilton-smith-from-his-natural-history-of-the-human-species-edinburgh-w-h-lizars-1848-P9HA5B.jpg[/IMG] Also Southwest Europeans i.e. Iberians are also African admixed as well. See [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010109;p=1]here[/URL] [QUOTE][qb]I have a hard time believing a filipino would act like this. This makes no sense, that would be like a chinese obsessing over the race of ancient germans lol[/qb][/QUOTE]Again, you have a hard time reading what I wrote. I'm not obsessed with race at all. I wanted to talk about ancient Egyptian culture, but I'm also about setting the record straight and debunking Euronut lies from folks like yourself-- a mentally mixed up admixed North African. [QUOTE][qb]Indeed arabized like 99% of modern "arabs".[/qb][/QUOTE]Yet apparently you have nothing to say about the part where it speaks of waves of mass military invasion. I'm starting to realize your neurosis (psychosis?) only allows you to selectively read what you want to read. [QUOTE][qb]Not all were deported to the middle east since the middle east also relied on the east african slave trade of zanj brought from east africa through the Red Sea. And not all males were castrated only eunuchs were and women didn't have "fertility issues" they were actually prefered to men that's why most black slaves were actually women used as domestics or concubines and in the islamic world the children born from a muslim and a black concubine was considered free therefore many mulattoes integrated islamic societies and that's why we see a sex-biased pattern when it comes to haplogroups where ssa Mtdna are way more present that the paternal ones : [QUOTE] [b]Comparing our results with previously reported genome-wide data, we also find evidence for a sex-biased sub-Saharan contribution to northern Africans, suggesting that historical events such as the trans-Saharan slave trade mainly contributed to the mtDNA and autosomal gene pool, whereas the northern African paternal gene pool was mainly shaped by more ancient events.[/b] [/QUOTE] https://www.ebi.ac.uk/ena/data/view/PRJEB24071 [/qb][/QUOTE]I never said "all" were deported, retard! I also said that such admixture with black slaves occurred among the Arab elite NOT the indigenous Baladi who were themselves at times worse off than slaves! Also, the Trans-Saharan slavery does not explain the predominant Sub-Saharan clade of M1 which most Sub-Saharans don't carry anymore than a slave trade of North African males into central Sudans explains the overwhelming predominance of E-M78 among Nilotic Fur and Masalit people there. Face it. YOUR arguments are the ones that hold no merit. [QUOTE][qb]Therefore why don't you acknowledge the fact that such non-metric datas show ancient egyptians to be mostly west eurasian : "Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada (#59), 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh (#60) cluster with Northwest Indians from Punjab and Kashmir (#44), Ancient and Modern Greeks (#48), Scandinavians from Finland, Sweden and Norway (#51, #52), and Modern Germans (#53)." [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/s8oiqmt.png[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/yRcbnGu.png?1[/IMG] This is what the paper also says : [QUOTE] [b]The initial split, suggesting the greatest dissimilarity, is between Subsaharan Africans and the rest of the world. The Europeans, North Africans, and South Asians are then separated from the remaining groups.[/b] [/QUOTE]HANIHARA, TSUNEHIKO, HAJIME ISHIDA, AND YUKIO DODO. 2003. Characterization of biological diversity through analysis of discrete cranial traits. American Journal of Physical Anthropology 121:241-251. Pre-Dynastic Southern Egyptians from Naqada and late dynastic 26th-30th Dynasty Northern Egyptians from Gizeh cluster with Caucasoids (modern Europeans, ancient Byzantine Greeks, and modern Turks). [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/5x1LAFo.png?1[/IMG] [IMG]https://i.imgur.com/nB1buP8.png?1[/IMG] [QUOTE] [b]The first main group can be broken down into two subgroups: (1) all the recent sub-Saharan populations and (2) mainly Central, East, and Northeast Eurasians. West Eurasians form the second main group[/b] , which is also subdivided into two subgroups. [b]One of these subgroups includes all the eastern Mediterranean populations (three ancient Egyptian/Sudanese populations from Naqada, Gizeh, and Kerma as well as the Cypriot/Turkish, Greek, and Sagalassian populations) and the Scandinavian sample; the second subgroup includes the other West Eurasian populations.[/b] " [/QUOTE]Ricaut, F. X. and Waelkens, M (2008) "Cranial Discrete Traits in a Byzantine Population and Eastern Mediterranean Population Movements," Human Biology: Vol. 80: Iss. 5, Article 5.[/qb][/QUOTE]WRONG again! I addressed your erroneous assumptions about Hanihara [URL=http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=010501]here[/URL] [QUOTE][qb]Here dental non-metric : 12th Dynasty Northern (Lisht), Roman/Byzantine (El Hesa), and Byzantine (Kharga) Egyptians cluster with other North Africans and Europeans (Poundbury, England). [QUOTE]First, this homogeneity spans both space - from the Canary Islands to Egypt, and time - from recent Arabs and Berbers to West Asian-derived Carthaginians (751?-146 BC), [b]18th Dynasty (1575-1380 BC) Pharonic Nubians, and 12th Dynasty (1991-1783 BC) Egyptians.[/b] A small Capsian sample (ca. 8,500-5,000 BP) from Algeria and Tunisia also exhibits many trait similarities. Late Pleistocene Nubians (14,500-12,500 BP), however, are significantly different. [b]Second, the post-Pleistocene North Africans are similar to Europeans in that they possess numerous dental features involving morphological simplification. Any North African deviations away from this pattern are in the direction of mass-additive Sub-Saharan traits. This finding supports the results of prior genetic-based studies that link North Africans to Europeans and western Asians, yet record several Sub-Saharan tendencies. Together, the two findings suggest that a morphologically simple dental pattern is shared by the indigenous peoples of North Africa, as well as Europe and perhaps western Asia, and this pattern has existed for the past 4,000 to perhaps 8,500+/- years."[/b] [/QUOTE][IMG]https://i.imgur.com/OkbCeCD.gif[/IMG] Irish J.D. 1998b. Diachronic and synchronic dental trait affinities of late and post-pleistocene peoples from North Africa. Homo. 49(2) 138-155 It seems that when discussing Irish's work you missed this : [QUOTE] [b]However, all 15 samples exhibit morphologically simple, mass reduced dentitions that are similar to those in populations from greater North Africa (Irish, 1993, 1998a–c, 2000) and, to a lesser extent, western Asia and Europe (Turner, 1985a; Turner and Markowitz, 1990; Roler, 1992; Lipschultz, 1996; Irish, 1998a).Similar craniofacial measurements among samples from these regions were reported as well (Brace et al., 1993)[/b] [/QUOTE]Joel D. Irish (2006). Who Were the Ancient Egyptians? Dental Affinities Among Neolithic Through Postdynastic Peoples. Am J Phys Anthropol. 2006 Apr;129(4):529-43.[/qb][/QUOTE][b]LOL[/b] I missed nothing, and am well aware of what Irish wrote, unlike YOU moron! Irish’s point is that metrically North Africans do cluster with Western Eurasians in that they possess smaller mass-reduced teeth while Sub-Saharans have larger mass additive teeth that makes them cluster with Australasians, that does not make Sub-Saharans Australasians. However the focus of his study is [b]nonmetric[/b] features by which he states: [i]Thus, I proposed (Irish, 1993b, 1998a) that the North African dental trait complex is one which parallels that of Europeans, [b]yet displays higher frequencies of Bushman Canine, two-rooted UP1, three-rooted UM2, LM2 Y- groove, LM1 cusp 7, LP1 Tome's root, two-rooted LM2[/b], and lower frequencies of UM1 enamel extension and peg/reduced or absent UM3. North Africans also exhibit a higher frequency of UM1 Carabelli's trait than sub-Saharan Africans or Europeans.[/i] ^ All the traits in bold are shared with Sub-Saharans which is why overall North Africans do NOT cluster with West Eurasians nonmetrically but are intermediate to them and Sub-Saharans, just as they are cranially, loser! [QUOTE][qb]Here you're generalizing, only a minority of north africans have tropically adapted limbs and such trait isn't exclusive to SSA populations, it's simply an adaptation to hot climate: [QUOTE] [b]The elongation of the distal segments of the limbs is also clearly related to the dissipation of metabolically generated heat. Since heat stress and latitude are clearly related, one would expect to find a correlation between the two sets of traits that are associated with adaptation to survival in areas of great ambient temperature-namely skin color and limb proportions.[/b] This is clearly the case in such areas as equatorial Africa, the tropical portions of South Asia, and northern Australia, although there is little covariation with other sets of inherited traits. In this regard, it is interesting to note that the limb proportions of the Predynastic Naqada people in Upper Egypt are reported to be “super-negroid,” meaning that the distal segments are elongated in the fashion of tropical Africans (Robins and Shute, 1986). [b]It would be just as accurate to call them “super-Veddoid or “superCarpentarian” since skin color intensification and distal limb elongation is apparent wherever people have been long-term residents of the tropics. The term “supertropical” would be better since it implies the results of selection associated with a given latitude rather than the more “racially loaded” term “negroid.[/b] [/QUOTE]Brace, C. L., D. P. Tracer, L. A. Yaroch, J. Robb, K. Brandt, and A. R. Nelson. 1993. Clines and Clusters Versus "Race": A Test in Ancient Egypt and the Case of a Death on the Nile. Yearbook of Physical Anthropology 36:1-31.[/qb][/QUOTE][b]LOL[/b] You accuse ME of generalizing after generalizing all North Africans as non-blacks while generalizing all blacks as stereotypical "negroes". As for the excuse of "climate adaptation", you do realize that the very country of Egypt straddles the Tropic of Cancer right?? The reason why the term "super-negroid" was applied instead of "super-veddoid" or "super-carpentarian" was because these early anthropologists are not in denial like you are and realize that Egypt is nowhere near India or Australia but lies squarely in Africa thus "negroid" affinities in body build as well as skin color as well as other traits. [QUOTE][qb]You talk about "north africans" be more precise next time then.[/qb][/QUOTE][b]LOL[/b] Aren't YOU the one who first grouped Egyptians with Maghrebis under the moniker of North Africans in the first place?! [QUOTE][qb]Euronuts? I'm not european. And there is no whitewashing, we're just acknowledging the fact that some african populations have eurasian ancestry (which can impact their phenotypes/cultures) meanwhile you just want to lump every african pop together under the label of "black" ...so who's really playing against africa here ?[/qb][/QUOTE]You don't have to be of European descent to be a Euronut. Trust me, I've come across my share of Asians who have been mentally colonized by those of European descent as well as North Africans like yourself. [QUOTE][qb]Also what do you mean by "foreign" admixture ? It was already there back in the bronze and iron age. Rural berbers aren't really different and they actually lack the additional ssa and natufian ancestry of some urban north africans.[/qb][/QUOTE]I'm talking about European admixture from late Neolithic to Bronze Age in the Maghreb as well as later Carthagenian and Roman influence to the Arab invasion. As far as Egypt it was Asiatic influence from the Hysksos onward as well as Greco-Roman and then Arab and Turkish conquest. The Natufians and earlier peoples in the Levant by the way were of African extraction. So any back-migration from them is just that-- Africans migrating back to Africa. [QUOTE][qb]I see a contradiction here, you acknowledge this doesn't necessarily make them black but at the same time use this kind of argument to make any ancient population "black" or "african". So at the end you agree that some ANA among natufians doesn't mean much except that they might have north african ancestors which was already hypothesized by Lazaridis.[/qb][/QUOTE]Nope. Again a misunderstanding on your part. That EEF isn't necessarily 'black' is due to the admixed nature of it. EEF originated in West Asia as a mixture between black African immigrants and Asiatics. So if one applies Western-American one-drop rule standards, then yes it IS 'black', but one must also take into account the 'Basal Eurasians' who also may very well be of African origin. And the very name 'Early European Farmer' is misleading anyway because they weren't European in origin. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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