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Message: HTML is not enabled. UBB Code™ is enabled.	[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] In the Bekada 2013 paper - I have to admit sometimes it is a good idea to rehash these old subjects. Taking another look at the data , can anyone correct me? Are these Native American LINEAGE I am seeing throughout North Africa? Why Am I asking? The new paper on pre-colonial Canary Islanders or was it on Cape Verde also showed Native American ancestry lineage. What does it all mean? Tic! Tic! Toc! I remember the author made up a story about the person who carried the Native American Ancestry had fore-parents that came from the Americas....supposedly. Now a lot of Americans migrated back-to-Africa. Lol! But seriously. Implications? Hint. Are we back to land bridges this time across the Atlantic or Africans sailing across the Atlantic or OOA occurring much later than we are told and NOT along the same path as we are led to believe. [/qb][/QUOTE]Well, that could indicate two things. That during the Trans Atlantic slave trade Native Americans indeed made a turn to Africa. As mixed or unmixed with freed Africans. Or that, prior to the Trans Atlantic slave trade indeed Africans had contact with Amerindians. Depending on the founder? The second will never be accepted if so. [/QB][/QUOTE]

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xyyman Member # 13597	posted Can anyone help me out here?
the lioness, Member # 17353	posted what's the problem?
Swenet Member # 17303	posted During our previous discussion (in the Canary Islands aDNA thread) I was wondering why you seemed unaware of Bekada et al 2013 because you treated the R1b there as more newsworthy than it is. There are several old (mid-holocene?) R1b clades in coastal northwest Africa. We've already discussed that paper here.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted WHAAAAT!!!??? WTF? aDNA showing R1b IN Affrica,? when? where? what? QUOTE "There are several old (mid-holocene?) R1b clades in coastal northwest Africa. We've already discussed that paper here."
Swenet Member # 17303	posted aDNA? Your words, not mine. Like I said, I was referencing Bekada et al 2013 and that paper was already discussed here. http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0056775
xyyman Member # 13597	posted Swenet. Are you making shyte up again young man? lol!
xyyman Member # 13597	posted lol! That's right!. Back off that statement and stop making stuff up......SMH You know I am about to close the deal on male R1b just as I did with mtDNA H. The clock is .......tic! toc! quote: Originally posted by Swenet: aDNA? Your words, not mine.
Swenet Member # 17303	posted Fabricating what? Just read the Bekada paper, gramps. That way you don't have to be befuddled by R1b in coastal North African DNA again.
the lioness, Member # 17353	posted " In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%." --Bekada
Ish Gebor Member # 18264	posted quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: " In the Maghreb countries, the frequency of R-V88 drops to around 1%." --Bekada Transition zone: W. Saharan-Mauritanian belong to sub-group R-V88, reaching a frequency of 7%, similar to those observed in other Sahel samples [40]. [...] Within North Africa, its lowest distance is to W. Sahara-Mauritania (FST = 0.023) and the greatest to Libya (FST = 0.108). --Bekada
Swenet Member # 17303	posted As far as xyyman's question in the OP of this thread, the relevant part of the Bekada paper is fig 1. The coastal northwest Africans have low freq and patchy R1b lineages besides R-V88.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted Africans carry parental or upstream clades??? quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: what's the problem?
xyyman Member # 13597	posted Now you are catching on. You see even a blind squirrel find a nut. Lol! "Besides V88". So . .....in my OP, are they talking R1b V88 or something else ? ? You do have flashes of brilliance .lol! quote: Originally posted by Swenet: The relevant part of the paper is fig 1. The coastal northwest Africans have low freq and patchy R1b lineages besides R-V88.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted Did I find the smoking gun ?
Swenet Member # 17303	posted Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 as in the OP screenshot, you're more likely to detect them.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted Dp
the lioness, Member # 17353	posted quote: Originally posted by xyyman: Did I find the smoking gun ? No, smoking doesn't mean it came from a gun
the lioness, Member # 17353	posted quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them. what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first?
Swenet Member # 17303	posted quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them. what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first? Most likely scenario we have as far as where modern day North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from: "As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene." Gonzales et al 2013 Note that I said "modern day North Africans" and "MOST or ALL". I don't believe the V88 allele necessarily has to emerge in West/Central Africa. It is found in Iberia already dating to 5000BC. This early date (very close to its estimated age) kinda makes it seem unlikely that West/Central Africa was involved with this Iberian sample. Much more likely that he's an early North African R-V88 branch that never went south.
the lioness, Member # 17353	posted quote: Originally posted by Swenet: quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them. what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first? Most likely scenario we have as far as where North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from: "As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene." Gonzales et al 2013 The Siwa, I don't have the source, seem to carry it at much higher levels than Maghrebis. And this corresponds to their B-M109. It is strange how if that came from Cameroon then why it would not be a West to East gradient with Central Africans carrying more than Siwa. The coalescence date is serval thousand years whereas R1 is much older, supposedly. This before it even split into a, b and c. I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved
xyyman Member # 13597	posted quote: "I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved" Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming
Swenet Member # 17303	posted Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa. The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point. And in that case, the gradient in between the Dead Sea Jordan population and Africans is also gone because they're a R-V88 'enclave' in the middle of populations with little to no R-V88.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted I am beginning to like you young man...... showing some smarts finally quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa. The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264	posted quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Gradients can be diluted or disappear entirely by later population movements. In this case we know the Sahara dried up so there is no reason to expect much of a clean gradient in between the Siwa and West/Central Africa. The isolated Dead Sea Jordanians also have elevated R-V88. So if they're a part of this gradient (as opposed to some other source of V88 that stayed in North Africa), the Siwa are just one place along this gradient, not the end point. Swenet, populations in the Sahara / Sahel always knew the way up north and down south. With and without the drying of the Sahara region. No problem, it was never a problem. It has been like that for thousands of years.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264	posted quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: quote: Originally posted by Swenet: quote: Originally posted by the lioness,: quote: Originally posted by Swenet: Does it matter much? You know coastal Maghrebis have both. Their R1b(xV88) is just below detection levels in some studies. When you get coastal sample sizes of n=215 you're more likely to detect them. what do you think the reason is that Siwas carry V88 and B-M109 ? Is it correct to assume it came from Cameroon/Chad first? Most likely scenario we have as far as where North Africans get most or all of their R-V88 from: "As high microsatellite variance was found inside this haplogroup in Central-West Africa and a decrease in this variance was observed towards Northeast Africa, our findings do not support the previously hypothesised movement of Chadic-speaking people from the North across the Sahara as the explanation for these R1b1 lineages in Central-West Africa. The present findings are also compatible with an origin of the V88-derived allele in the Central-West Africa, and its presence in North Africa may be better explained as the result of a migration from the south during the mid-Holocene." Gonzales et al 2013 The Siwa, I don't have the source, seem to carry it at much higher levels than Maghrebis. And this corresponds to their B-M109. It is strange how if that came from Cameroon then why it would not be a West to East gradient with Central Africans carrying more than Siwa. The coalescence date is serval thousand years whereas R1 is much older, supposedly. This before it even split into a, b and c. I think there is not enough information about this recently discovered V88 to be resolved As I said, you need to go back to the drawing table.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264	posted quote: Originally posted by xyyman: Can anyone help me out here? Southern Libya has several ethnic groups who roam the region of Chad, Niger and Libya. And have been doing so for thousands of years. You should have looked at the references. quote: Individual ancestry and population substructure were detectable with very high resolution. The relationship between haplotype heterozygosity and geography was consistent with the hypothesis of a serial founder effect with a single origin in sub-Saharan Africa. In addition, we observed a pattern of ancestral allele frequency distributions that reflects variation in population dynamics among geographic regions. This data set allows the most comprehensive characterization to date of human genetic variation. --Li JZ1 Science. 2008 Feb 22;319(5866):1100-4. doi: 10.1126/science.1153717. Worldwide human relationships inferred from genome-wide patterns of variation. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18292342
Swenet Member # 17303	posted ^The drying Sahara forced people out of the region with the gradient is what I'm saying. I didn't say any other subsequent migrations were impossible. quote: Originally posted by xyyman: I am beginning to like you young man...... I got this! Sources cited! Lol. Yes. I love how I break it down, too. But did you READ the Bekada paper? You can't be out here looking befuddled every time you find a North African sample with R1b.
xyyman Member # 13597	posted What? you fugking with me young man. "befuddled". Anyways. In the Bekada 2013 paper - I have to admit sometimes it is a good idea to rehash these old subjects. Taking another look at the data , can anyone correct me? Are these Native American LINEAGE I am seeing throughout North Africa? Why Am I asking? The new paper on pre-colonial Canary Islanders or was it on Cape Verde also showed Native American ancestry lineage. What does it all mean? Tic! Tic! Toc! I remember the author made up a story about the person who carried the Native American Ancestry had fore-parents that came from the Americas....supposedly. Now a lot of Americans migrated back-to-Africa. Lol! But seriously. Implications? Hint. Are we back to land bridges this time across the Atlantic or Africans sailing across the Atlantic or OOA occurring much later than we are told and NOT along the same path as we are led to believe.
Ish Gebor Member # 18264	posted quote: Originally posted by xyyman: In the Bekada 2013 paper - I have to admit sometimes it is a good idea to rehash these old subjects. Taking another look at the data , can anyone correct me? Are these Native American LINEAGE I am seeing throughout North Africa? Why Am I asking? The new paper on pre-colonial Canary Islanders or was it on Cape Verde also showed Native American ancestry lineage. What does it all mean? Tic! Tic! Toc! I remember the author made up a story about the person who carried the Native American Ancestry had fore-parents that came from the Americas....supposedly. Now a lot of Americans migrated back-to-Africa. Lol! But seriously. Implications? Hint. Are we back to land bridges this time across the Atlantic or Africans sailing across the Atlantic or OOA occurring much later than we are told and NOT along the same path as we are led to believe. Well, that could indicate two things. That during the Trans Atlantic slave trade Native Americans indeed made a turn to Africa. As mixed or unmixed with freed Africans. Or that, prior to the Trans Atlantic slave trade indeed Africans had contact with Amerindians. Depending on the founder? The second will never be accepted if so.