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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Ish Gebor: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [qb] Further, if the AE were truly indigenous and not "back migrants", what lineages would they have had if not related to those original migrations out of Africa? See the point? You all are proposing that there is some "other" group that the AE would descend from in North Africa that is not SSA but there is no other "indigenous" lineage according to modern science that would have been populating the Nile Valley since OOA that would NOT have been tied to SSA lineages according to the current scientific definition of the mtDNA map. So what on earth are you talking about? That is what I mean by Greece is still European no matter how you slice it. It sits on the European continent, the people primarily came from the European continent and they speak Indo European languages. Yes there is mixture but that does not make Greece African. Same thing here. The only "other" population that the AE could descend from that is not related to so called "sub saharan" African DNA lineages are NON African. There is no "other". So your point is silly to begin with. Otherwise, please list for me the DNA lineages, parternal or otherwise that you feel the AE "should" have and still be indigenous and not SSA or Eurasian back migrants..... I will wait. And really the fundamental issue is someone needs to address the population history of the Nile Valley since OOA. Right now the only scenarios I see are: 1) OOA populations migrate through the Nile Valley during times of suitable environmental conditions. 2) Later populations in the Nile Valled displaced due to harsh environmental changes(likely subsequent mini wave of OOA). 3) Fluctuations in population as environmental circumstances change 4) Later settlement prior to the dynastic era either comes mainly from the South (ie so-called Sub Saharans) and Sahara (also from the South) or comes mainly from outside Africa, including resident Eurasian back migrants in coastal areas. And the last option is the middle ground option: 5) Settlements along the Nile fluctuated but there was still a presence of original populations from OOA migrations in small pockets along the Nile of NMH who moved as environmental conditions changed. Later populations would arrive from the Southern areas and add to this "basal" population and/or include some Eurasian "back migration" over time. The last option would be required if modern Egyptians have some "echo" of the original "basal" DNA that was carried by the original OOA migrants, as some recent papers suggest. Of course unraveling this requires more DNA samples from ancient remains and not more theorizing. [/qb][/QUOTE]I think the core of this is interpretation (misunderstanding) lies within linages, which are interpreted as have risen outside of Africa, which perhaps could have had risen within Africa as bottleneck occurances. [QUOTE] Population comparisons Based on FST values, the mitochondrial genetic diversity of Soqotra is statistically different (P \ 0.01) from the comparative populations. An MDS plot of FST values shows that the Soqotra sample is clearly distinct from all sub-Saharan, North African, Middle East, and Indian populations (see Fig. 2). [b] High differentiation of the East African groups such as the Sandawe, Hadza, Turu, Datog, and Burunge is shown on the left side of the graph. However, there is a general similarity of the remaining sub-Saharan African populations, particularly those from the Sahel band and the Chad Basin (with the exception of the Fulani nomads). Subsequently, there is a transitional zone formed by the populations from Ethiopia and the Nile Valley but also by some Yemeni groups, particularly the ones from the eastern parts of the country (Hadramawt). [/b]Finally, the cluster on the right part of the graph is composed by the Indian populations on the top, the Near and Middle Eastern groups in the middle and the populations of the Arabian peninsula at the bottom; Yemeni Jews being slightly different. The only outlier within the region of southwestern Asia is the Kalash sample that is situated on the extreme right part of the graph (see also Quintana-Murci et al., 2004). There is a general cline among all populations in the MDS plot from the Soqotri population to a cluster of Middle East and North African populations that splits into sub-Saharan and Indian populations. Population differentiation of Soqotra from African, Middle East and Indian populations based on NRY-SNP data manifests a similar picture although the compara- tive populations are different and fewer than in the mi- tochondrial DNA analysis (see Fig. 3). A comparison of FST values shows that the only population that is not significantly different from Soqotra is that from Yemen (P [ 0.01). Similarly to mtDNA MDS plot, we observe a cline from the Soqotri population to a cluster of Middle East and North African populations that splits into sub- Saharan and Indian populations. Phylogenetic affiliations Within the Soqotri samples, we identified haplotypes belonging to three of the main branches of the mtDNA phylogeny (macrohaplogroups L, N, and R); notably hap- logroup M is absent (Table 2). There are only two sub- Saharan L haplotypes and they do not carry the 3594HpaI mutation so their classification is L3*; these haplotypes do not contain the specific mutations of L5b (23594HpaI) (Kivisild et al., 2004) and therefore they are possibly L3h2 as they both contain substitutions at 16111, 16184, and 16304 (see Behar et al., 2008). Macro- haplogroup N is represented by three different haplo- types of which only one can be unambiguously classified as N1a (it contains HVS-I motif 16147G-16172-16223-16248-16355). Two other N haplotypes have never been found outside Soqotra (see Table 2). The most widespread mtDNA types in Soqotra belong to macrohaplogroup R (Table 2). The majority of R haplo- types can be classified as R0a [previously known as (preHV)1]. Three of the R haplotypes have not been previously reported. A network analysis of all Soqotri R0a haplotypes with additional sequences from Africa and Asia (see Fig. 4) shows a time to most recent common ancestor (TMRCA) of 23,339 6 8,232 YBP for R0a. It is shown that the majority of Soqotri R0a haplotypes fall into clade R0a1 (defined by variant 16355) whose TMRCA is 11,418 6 4,198 YBP. Furthermore, within R0a1, the unique Soqotri haplotypes form a new clade that is defined by variant 16172 and that we have named R0a1a1. Abu-Amero et al. (2007) identified a hap- lotype defined by variant 16355 and named it (preHV)1a1, thus it corresponds to R0a1a using the newer nomenclature and the unique Soqotri haplotypes are derived from this lineage). This Soqotri-specific clade has a very young TMRCA (3,363 6 2,378 YBP) that sug- gests the R0a1a1 haplotypes evolved on Soqotra and have not dispersed elsewhere. Two other Soqotri R hap- lotypes are not classified further than R* and are quite common in neighboring populations. Five haplotypes within macrohaplogroup R carry the 4216N1aIII variant that places them in clade JT. Of the JT haplotypes, two are unique to Soqotra; J1b is represented by two individuals and T* is represented by one individual. The majority of NRY haplotypes in Soqotra belong to haplogroup J (85.7%), with most (45 out of 54) unclassified as J*(xJ1,J2) and a few (the remaining 9 samples) classified as J1 (see Fig. 5). It is interesting to note that NRY haplotypes lacking both M172 and M267, as in our unclassified J*, have not been previously identified on the Arabian Peninsula (Cadenas et al., 2008). Haplogroup E is represented at a frequency of 9.5% and three other haplogroups, F*(xJ,K), K*(xO,P) and R*(xR1b), are present in one individual each. It is worth noting that none of the ancient African haplogroups (A and B) were observed in Soqotra. […] [b]In comparison with datasets from neighboring regions, the Soqotri population shows evidence of long-term isolation and autochthonous evolution of several mitochondrial haplogroups.[/b][/QUOTE]—Viktor Cˇ erny ́ Out of Arabia—The Settlement of Island Soqotra as Revealed by Mitochondrial and Y Chromosome Genetic Diversity [QUOTE] [b]African and Middle Eastern populations shared the greatest number of alleles absent from all other populations [/b](fig. S6B). [IMG]http://i68.tinypic.com/xgcn6v.jpg[/IMG] [/QUOTE]—Sarah A. Tishkoff, The Genetic Structure and History of Africans and African Americans [/QB][/QUOTE]
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