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Vedic Origins of the Europeans: the Children of Danu (Questions)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by coolnight: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by coolnight: [qb] [/qb][/QUOTE]The reason why IE has a single origin is because linguistically all IE languages share not merely typological but [i]genetic[/i] features i.e. similarity in vocabulary and word formation due to descent from a common 'ancestor' and by ancestor I mean original language spoken by a particular people. There can be no "dual" origin since all languages stem from ancestors that are now lost. As a perfect example, of all the European languages Vedic Sanskrit resembles the most is Old Lithuanian to the point that there may be some (though not perfect) mutual intelligibility between a Vedic Sanskrit speaker and Old Lithuanian speaker. Yet in terms of names and aspects of deities, Vedic Sanskrit shows the most resemblance to those of Celtic speaking peoples of western Europe, while the religious rituals match those of Slavic peoples.'' Yes maybe a single origin but very unlikely that the dating of the speaking of the indo european language in south asia and indo european speaking tribes who emigrated to south asia correlate with each other. ''In this case we have evidence going beyond just language but religious thought and customs. You see, language like religious belief and custom are all memes or intellctual ideas or notions that can be propagated from one person to another without necessarily migration or biological propagation or admixture which is why though archaeology and biology of populations may be linked, then again they don't have to. The propagation or spread of memes is called memetics, while that of genes or biology is genetics.'' Yes. Beliefs, religion, customs, values are ideas that can spread without migration/inter mixing between different groups. However there is no smoke without fire, I find hard to believe that for example in the case of india where you find so much european influence. You see it in the genes of Top Bollywood actors many of whom have european admixture (Katirn kaif, Nargis Fakhri, Karish/kareena Kapoor/ Arjun Rampal/Ayesha Takia/ Dia Mirza etc....) Aishwarya rai clearly has some european european and mongloid ancestry likely of ancient origin. On top bollywood actors when they marry out are know to marry europeans. Older time actor Shasho Kapoor married Jennifer Kendal who was european. Priety Zinta married a european guy. Priyank Chopra has been romantically linked to one or two european actors. Then a lot of bollywood music videos have european dancers. Even some of there top Bollywood songs have one or two lines/the odd word sung in the english language. Then you have the European sonia Ghandi in the indian political elite. List goes on......I mean you there is a line between propogation/transfer of beliefs, ideas,customs and culture which occur without migration or biological propogation and those that got established in a region/people due to emigration of intermixing of another group into there gene pool. In the case of India the european influence/ideas, customs and culture we find in India is a bit too much for it not to be the result of some degree of intermixing occurring between the two groups. Contrary to what people like to say looking at indian culture. The Indians and Europeans appear quite comfortable with each other. This is what makes the whole indo european question (language and genes) so difficult to understand because indo european speaking tribes ( northern european types) have indeed historically migrated to india. With regards to your point. You are right it can work either way but there is a line, a degree to which one culture can influence another without emigration or intermixing occurring between both groups. Your example above how Vedic Sanskrit resembles the most Old Lithuanian yet in terms of names and aspects of deities the language shows stronger relation to celtic speaking people shows how culture and genes are not always correlated. That a group may indeed share similar similar customers, beliefs to another group and believe they must therefore be related only to find that on another level they completely differ. Not just yours but many examples show how culture and genetics are not always correlated. You have two different groups who share a certain cultural feature but something is always missing in one group that breaks the idea of any genetic relation between the two. ''In the case of India, the Sinhalese of Sri Lanka are Indo-Aryan speakers though they largely possess ASI ancestry in some cases more so than the Dravidian speaking Tamils.'' Yes Kalash speak indo european but are said to have no european admixture. When two groups share something a strong cultural feature, something as strong as a shared language and neither groups genes shows any influence/intermixture from the other then is is obvious there is a third hand at play. This is why it is important to know the genetic impact europeans (authentic european admixture) have made in south asia in order to resolve, come to a better understanding of the indo european question. However determining a group/people's ancestry is not an easy task especially in a region like south asia which has historically seen many migrations in to the land. [QUOTE][qb] interesting. Which do you support?[/qb][/QUOTE]Hard to say. The archaeology shows that region (Kashmir and Baltistan) to be home to a particular culture since neolithic times though the mountainous terrain including mountains plants like soma, mountain valleys, and tribes associated with valleys and highlands strongly implies this region. Not to mention groups like the Chitrali and Kalash peoples who preserve Vedic customs and even some modern Kashmiris. Archeaology should show if a culture or particular region was homogeneous/heterogeneous. Obviously a group that belonged to the same race would likely express a homogeneous/similar culture. That is a shared language, customs,religious beliefs,view of the world/life. If archaeology shows homogeneity in this region then it likely means these people were genetically same/similar/close. However like the Indo european language how do you determine where something began or the homeland of something? They say human race comes from/began in Africa because oldest bones have been found in Africa. Africans have the most ethnic diversity from all groups. How do you connect a language to a geographic region? If the earliest indo aryan speakers were indigenous to kashmir/swat vally then this region should hold a lot of vital information about these people. When you say the earliest indo aryan speakers then who are later indo aryans speakers you are speaking of? Is it the ''the spread of Neolithic culture from Southwest Asia, namely Iran'' you mean. [/qb][/QUOTE]I don't like to get into race typology especially with terms like "caucasian" but I meant nothing racial at all by Central Asian tribes. You have to realize that Central Asia was in a literal sense a central point of confluence in Eurasia or human populations throughout history. As such, the populations were heterogeneous and varied depending on the time period. During the neolithic expansions from the Middle East, you had populations from Iran (who did not look the same as modern Iranians) who expanded into both Central Asia and India. These people in my opinion were dark-skinned. Then you had IE speaking people from the north who very well might have been 'white' or "caucasian" in appearance, followed by Turks and Mongols from the east in later periods. Mind you there were also expansions [i]from[/i] India which explains populations like the so-called "black Huns" of whom were the ancestors of the Dom and Roma i.e "Gypsies". [/QB][/QUOTE] I agree racially the term caucasian has no meaning. Like the term Mediterranean it is used to lump people a large group or people who broadly share the similar traits together. This was my point that what/who is central asian when that region has historically been settled by many different groups. So when you said ''Genetically there is actually very little if any influence from these Central Asians among Vedic Indians, and that most of the Central Asian genetic influence among Indians today actually date to later historical times post-Vedic era.''Although it does appear most central asian influence in india is of a later date but we do not know the totality of who/what groups existed back then.There were many migrations back n forth from out of/into that region. There probably are groups whose existence we know nothing of today that have gone extinct that we know nothing about. The reason the indo european question is so popular especially amongst europeans with whom there is almost like a religious following over it is because europeans a like everyone else are seeking to understand the history of there people. Even if we take away the language (indo european) connection between south asia and european we are still left with genetic aspect. That is the genetic impact europeans have made in South Asia. Europeans are aware they have historically been migrating to india. The degree of european influence you find in India compared to other regions is a testimony to this. ''Mind you there were also expansions [i]from[/i] India which explains populations like the so-called "black Huns" of whom were the ancestors of the Dom and Roma i.e "Gypsies". [/QB][/QUOTE]'' Not heard of the ''Black Huns'' from india. Any information on this group. This is all interesting stuff but time consuming to learn about. When wanting to find the right answer you have to go so far n deep into things that you naturally end up getting lost or going round and round in circles that you forget what it is you wanted to know in the first place. I find this becomes exhausting but I guess if you want to know the truth. There is no easy way to get to the bottom of things. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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