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Vedic Origins of the Europeans: the Children of Danu (Questions)
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by coolnight: [qb] Yes maybe a single origin but very unlikely that the dating of the speaking of the indo european language in south asia and indo european speaking tribes who emigrated to south asia correlate with each other.[/qb][/QUOTE]The problem is that we have yet to find an exact genetic component correlating to Indo-Aryan in India. Again, the best place to start would be the northernmost part of the subcontinent, but that does not explain the spread of the language itself, which was a cultural phenomenon rather than a biological one. The irony is that we have more genetic evidence of Proto-Semitic's origins in Africa which is far older than for Indo-Aryan. [QUOTE][qb]Yes. Beliefs, religion, customs, values are ideas that can spread without migration/inter mixing between different groups. However there is no smoke without fire, I find hard to believe that for example in the case of india where you find so much european influence. You see it in the genes of Top Bollywood actors many of whom have european admixture (Katirn kaif, Nargis Fakhri, Karish/kareena Kapoor/ Arjun Rampal/Ayesha Takia/ Dia Mirza etc....) Aishwarya rai clearly has some european european and mongloid ancestry likely of ancient origin. On top bollywood actors when they marry out are know to marry europeans. Older time actor Shasho Kapoor married Jennifer Kendal who was european. Priety Zinta married a european guy. Priyank Chopra has been romantically linked to one or two european actors. Then a lot of bollywood music videos have european dancers. Even some of there top Bollywood songs have one or two lines/the odd word sung in the english language. Then you have the European sonia Ghandi in the indian political elite. List goes on......I mean you there is a line between propogation/transfer of beliefs, ideas,customs and culture which occur without migration or biological propogation and those that got established in a region/people due to emigration of intermixing of another group into there gene pool. In the case of India the european influence/ideas, customs and culture we find in India is a bit too much for it not to be the result of some degree of intermixing occurring between the two groups. Contrary to what people like to say looking at indian culture. The Indians and Europeans appear quite comfortable with each other. This is what makes the whole indo european question (language and genes) so difficult to understand because indo european speaking tribes ( northern european types) have indeed historically migrated to india. With regards to your point. You are right it can work either way but there is a line, a degree to which one culture can influence another without emigration or intermixing occurring between both groups. Your example above how Vedic Sanskrit resembles the most Old Lithuanian yet in terms of names and aspects of deities the language shows stronger relation to celtic speaking people shows how culture and genes are not always correlated. That a group may indeed share similar similar customers, beliefs to another group and believe they must therefore be related only to find that on another level they completely differ. Not just yours but many examples show how culture and genetics are not always correlated. You have two different groups who share a certain cultural feature but something is always missing in one group that breaks the idea of any genetic relation between the two.[/qb][/QUOTE]Well from what I've heard from my Indian friends, other than the Euro-mixed families most of the fair-skinned families of Bollywood descend from northernmost areas like Punjab, Kashmir, and even as far away as Iran and Afghanistan. Fair-skin even in the Punjab is the result of more recent history since we even have evidence from ancient Persian writings describing the inhabitants of the Punjab as very dark in color. And even ancient Greek descriptions compare Indus peoples' complexion to the Egyptians. So again, the occurrenc of fair skin may very well be due to immigration from Central Asia during the Medieval Period. Yet I find it funny how Bollywood even in its ancient historical portrayals still use fair-skinned actors to portray peoples as ancient as the Harappan Civilization! [QUOTE][qb]Yes Kalash speak indo european but are said to have no european admixture. When two groups share something a strong cultural feature, something as strong as a shared language and neither groups genes shows any influence/intermixture from the other then is is obvious there is a third hand at play. This is why it is important to know the genetic impact europeans (authentic european admixture) have made in south asia in order to resolve, come to a better understanding of the indo european question. However determining a group/people's ancestry is not an easy task especially in a region like south asia which has historically seen many migrations in to the land.[/qb][/QUOTE][b]LOL[/b] Who said they have no European admixture?? Last time I checked many sources especially from the Greeks try to claim the Kalash as relatives via Alexander the Great's men due to DNA findings. Suffice to say this genetic tie to European [i]pre-dates[/i] ancient Greece. [QUOTE][qb] Archeaology should show if a culture or particular region was homogeneous/heterogeneous. Obviously a group that belonged to the same race would likely express a homogeneous/similar culture. That is a shared language, customs,religious beliefs,view of the world/life. If archaeology shows homogeneity in this region then it likely means these people were genetically same/similar/close. However like the Indo european language how do you determine where something began or the homeland of something? They say human race comes from/began in Africa because oldest bones have been found in Africa. Africans have the most ethnic diversity from all groups. How do you connect a language to a geographic region? If the earliest indo aryan speakers were indigenous to kashmir/swat vally then this region should hold a lot of vital information about these people. When you say the earliest indo aryan speakers then who are later indo aryans speakers you are speaking of? Is it the ''the spread of Neolithic culture from Southwest Asia, namely Iran'' you mean.[/qb][/QUOTE]Before the spread of Neolithic culture i.e. sendentary farming, human groups were always nomadic spreading from area to area. Neolithic culture in India was indeed in part derived from Southwest Asia via Iran but after its dissemination in India there evolved localized subcultures including ones in Kashmir. But most archaeologists associate Indo-Aryan speakers with Painted-Grayware culture of the Iron Age in India. [/qb][/QUOTE]I agree racially the term caucasian has no meaning. Like the term Mediterranean it is used to lump people a large group or people who broadly share the similar traits together. This was my point that what/who is central asian when that region has historically been settled by many different groups. So when you said ''Genetically there is actually very little if any influence from these Central Asians among Vedic Indians, and that most of the Central Asian genetic influence among Indians today actually date to later historical times post-Vedic era.''Although it does appear most central asian influence in india is of a later date but we do not know the totality of who/what groups existed back then.There were many migrations back n forth from out of/into that region. There probably are groups whose existence we know nothing of today that have gone extinct that we know nothing about.[/qb][/quote] Precisely my point. The Indian historian Romila Thapar puts it very succinctly in this part of an interview [URL=https://youtu.be/2d3pQyfm5Yo]here[/URL]. [QUOTE][qb]The reason the indo european question is so popular especially amongst europeans with whom there is almost like a religious following over it is because europeans a like everyone else are seeking to understand the history of there people. Even if we take away the language (indo european) connection between south asia and european we are still left with genetic aspect. That is the genetic impact europeans have made in South Asia. Europeans are aware they have historically been migrating to india. The degree of european influence you find in India compared to other regions is a testimony to this.[/qb][/QUOTE]Yes but modern Europeans are not the same as the Vedic Aryans, proto-Indo-Aryans, or even proto-Indo-Euroepans. [QUOTE][qb]Not heard of the ''Black Huns'' from india. Any information on this group.[/qb][/QUOTE]Actually it is not known exactly where the 'black Huns' are from. Of the three main groups called 'Huns', the black Huns were the most remote in historical records. The original Huns who invaded Europe were described as having tanned complexions compared to Europeans, the later 'white Huns' or Hepthalites had pale complexions similar to Europeans and from among them arose the Kushana who conquered Afghanistan and the Punjab. These white Huns were obviously Iranic speakers. But the black Huns who were likely smaller in number and made no great conquests were known from only as a nomadic group similar to the other two Hun groups except very dark or 'black' in complexion. It is deduced that they come from India as Indians are the only black people within the vicinity of Cenral Asia who could take up horse nomadic culture unless you go the Afronut route of Clyde Winters and suggest they were Africans. [b]LOL[/b] [QUOTE][qb]This is all interesting stuff but time consuming to learn about. When wanting to find the right answer you have to go so far n deep into things that you naturally end up getting lost or going round and round in circles that you forget what it is you wanted to know in the first place. I find this becomes exhausting but I guess if you want to know the truth. There is no easy way to get to the bottom of things. [/qb][/QUOTE]It takes a lot of time and research. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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